MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Page 4 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Fri 12 Aug 2011 - 17:43

Aciano wrote:Hey sorry about my lack of a reply. I went on a little road trip up north with some friends. And btw: I was looking at who was online and that stuff down at the bottom of the page and I noticed that it was your birthday today so HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! cheer

Hope you had fun and cheers my dears!!! I am now a spry 30!!


Aciano wrote:
I do think that Doggett and Scully were good friends, but I always thought that Mulder and Scully were closer in the same amount of time. After about a year (premiere of season 2) together, Mulder and Scully are holding hands, she's trying desperately to find him, he's saying "at least I still have you" etc. Compare that to Scully and Doggett. In the premiere of season 9, Doggett is clearly concerned that Scully may have disappeared like Mulder, but Scully is still being cold and refusing to let him in. Even Doggett asks her why she is treating him like the enemy, but she tells him she doesn't want to hear it, to let it go, and makes him leave.

Yes, who could forget the wonderful and tender interaction of her and Mulder in Season 2, in Little Green Men, the hand on his hair, on his face, the last line Mulder says to her? smile Thats a loving Mulder. Thats a Mulder who wore his heart on his sleeve. Later on that Mulder faded so badly away. But in season 2, that ep in particular, I saw that as characters who were partners though, but great partners who cared about each other. I never saw that as a certain sign they would be good as lovers (though that would have been a good start) For me, Mulder was such a loner, such an outcast and Scully made him whole, normal and wanted in society again. That was what was beautiful when she was with him. Later on, this tenderness faded too much.

In comparison to what happened with Scully and Doggett in those season 9 opening scenes you were talking about, I god -damn hate those moments, but I understand she is simply scared for her child, if Doggett keeps looking into it. I think it was just her reacting to the situation rather than treating Doggett cold. I think if it was Skinner, or Reyes, she would have been close to treating him/her the same way if he/she was insisting on pursuing the case, putting her son in danger. What actually happens is she looks very regretful when she tells him to leave, and notices her baby doing something abnormal, realises Doggett was right, she was wrong, calls up the X Files office, Monica answers and she immediately wants to speak to Doggett and tells him outright she might have been wrong. They are both tender and not angry about anything that has happened in their last conversation together. What strikes me, is that if she told Mulder to drop a case, I can imagine him having a rant and telling her he is only interested in the truth and not doing as she says. What happens with Doggett, is he does not argue with her, he leaves, silently, and does not call her again. Yes, he doesnt even drop the case, but thats cause he is sure something is going on, but he does as she says when she asks him to leave and not contact her again. I think his loyalty to her, and to what she wants makes her realise everytime she is cold to him, that she is wrong to be this way with him. I dont think this means they arent close, in fact, this kind of drama brings them closer. The regret on her face, the fact she wants to speak to him again, means that it hurts when she told him to leave.

I remember Mulder and Scully just really being close partners at the FBI around 2 years into their relationship. They cared for each other more than just partners but I didnt see much of a personal element to their time together, other than One Breath. But then it was written that way to not focus on that, just focus on their great partnership that was unique. When they did focus on that later on into the series, it didnt fit right, cause it seemed to come out of no where, the unique became forced and out of character.

Mulder cares for her, in fact, I could buy he really loves her. I just dont think they suit each other romantically and I dont think he is the man she needs, thus I dont think he knows how to love her. Yes, there are years of examples where we could say he did this and that means he loves her, but to me, its a fine line between love and loyalty as a partner. I think the moments he has done her wrong stick out for her, cause he can be so off with her, its unsettling.

For Scully and Doggett, the risk is higher, the other man is still in the picture, yet, they are acting very, very caring to one another. His love for her is still obvious, it shows in everything he does, its deep, and his tenderness with her, makes it easier for her to tell him she might be wrong or his concern is whether SHE is ok and thats loving. Whether she wants to see this, wants to welcome this or even wants to pursue this further, is a matter for Scully to leave her attachment to a man she is simply loyal to. To me, it just seemed like Mulder was the only man available to her. Scully's times of resistance to Doggett's care is always shown to be misplaced and wrong in the end. She doesnt want to open up to Doggett, she is too scared that she could love him more than Mulder. Too scared that Doggett might fully prove he is a better man than the man she has spent years being a loner for.

Mulder and Scully were given more and more opportunities to show how much they cared, and in One Breath when Mulder is so depressed he quits the FBI. His partner is almost dead, he cant trust anyone, everyone is against him, he is alone again. The files were not worth anything to him. That is brilliant BRILLIANT beautiful wrting by Morgan and Wong Baby, and my 2nd fave ep of all. That is a caring Mulder. But I still ALWAYS saw that love and respect in a non romantic way. I can say that if he was written to be caring like that further down the line, I probably would have been very very happy for them as lovers. But he didnt show that care later in the years. Then when Doggett came, he scooped her into his arms and held her when she cried. I then thought, wow, a man who cares for Scully like this, a man who barely knows her, a man who is at odds with her, her with him...but still he does something a man like him, in a position like he is in, doesnt have to do. She hasnt been shown that kind of care for many years. She is almost immune to it.

You see, I guess the thing is, theres romance and then theres love and love lasts past the romance phase. With Mulder and Scully, they developed a sort of love that was built on friendship and respect. It was utterly beautiful to see, but I never really saw a romance there. Thats one of the reasons why them as a couple is slightly awkward to me. Whereas with Scully and Doggett, they had so much to work through, just to earn trust and friendship with eachother. Theres a "fate" element to them, an inconvenience to their relationship and I think fate is romantic. And I could imagine both of them doing romantic things, normal things, cause they were both more "normal" than Mulder, then she probably would fall in love with Doggett. I think that kind of process is more buyable to me for them to be a couple, than any journey Mulder and Scully had together.

Aciano wrote:
I agree with you that she did show respect him most of the time, like in the episodes you named. But I don't think that means that she was in love with him or even wanted that kind of relationship with him, I think it shows that she cares about him and wants to keep him as a friend. She was attracted to him, that's for sure, but there's a difference between attraction and wanting a relationship.I was attracted to that cute shirtless guy I saw rollerblading on Venice Beach last weekend but I don't want a relationship with him, I have a boyfriend

But for a woman who was really only loyal to Skinner (to a degree) and Mulder, to a man like Doggett, whom it took her time to trust, to welcome him, these things are quite bold for Scully, and no it doesnt show she is in love with him, I dont know if she ever was, but this attraction is a basis and foundation for love. This kind of care and attention to him, is a sign he means a lot to her. Thats a basis for more to happen there.

Yeah, you wouldnt love some stranger whom you saw in the street just cause you are attracted to him (though it could happen) but thats different. Doggett isnt just a stranger. I think the attraction there, has to be there, to start anymore in that direction. And one might want a relationship with a man you are attracted to, even if one is in a relationship. Thats why people have affairs, or leave a relationship. One might even fantasise about having a relationship with someone, even whilst in an existing relationship.

Want a relationship? Yeah, deep down in the darkness of her soul, I think she did WANT a relationship with Doggett, if it wasnt for Mulder's clutches. Like i said, she wouldnt even let herself THINK about moving onto a romantic relationship with Doggett cause that would mean a lot of melodrama and a lot of complications with her and Mulder. She was confused. She was bound to Mulder through the baby and cause he acts jealous even by her just having another FBI partner, when he was away, or by her having to open presents with her family, how does she even start to think about leaving Mulder emotionally, physically and professionally for a man whom she is attracted to and might treat her better than Mulder has? Its a risk, its unknown, its scary, she doesnt know if it would be worth leaving Mulder for a new guy like Doggett. Its like leaving a job you are settled in for a new job that you probably would be happier in. You have to take that risk. She just doesnt take that risk. She is so attached to Mulder and his quest that it would mean a massive change for her. With that, though, she cant help but show her care and loyalty to Doggett, even when Mulder is around.


Aciano wrote:
I agree that obviously she was much busier by they time Doggett came into her life than when she first met Mulder, and I know she didn't ditch Doggett all the time. I know her focus is more on Mulder because of the baby, they're lovers blah blah blah but I also think it was becasue she was in love with him. And as for her going after Doggett in Alone, that's simply priority when he is the one in real danger. If I had the father of my baby who I love with me completely healthy, and a friend of mine was in serious danger and missing, I would go after my friend no matter how much I loved the other guy.


That could be said about all the times she was worried for Mulder too and wanted him safe. The thing is given Mulder's jealousy of Doggett, her attention to Doggett then was in a war between her loyalty to Mulder and resting whilst being pregnant. There was more reason for her not to put him as priority. But she did put him as priority. Again, it doesnt mean she loves him, it just means she thinks about Doggett and wants him safe, and thats a basis for something for the future between them.

The same for her and Mulder technically, but when they did start something with eachother, it was too far down the line and it was not clear enough why they were doing what they were doing. It was like one of them said to eachother "If you havent got married by the time you are 30, we can hook up"! I think cause of Scullys quick attention to Doggett, his obvious feelings for her, if something happened between them, it would be simple and clear. The attraction was firey, it was at a time when they shouldnt be attracted to one another. But Mulder and Scully carried on for a long time not wanting to go in that direction, even with that attention and care and being single. It was not as obvious from Mulder, as it was from Doggett, that he was in love with her. Thats one reason why when they started something, it seemed strange and misplaced in time. And people can change their minds, people can meet someone when they are married and then want a divorce. It doesnt take away the moments they shared when they married though, its just different.

Aciano wrote:
gorgclaud wrote: DSR was more born from him falling for her 1st and I do believe that because of her loyalty for Mulder, she did not allow herself to see Doggett the same way or want to have feelings for him.
Agreed, Scully and Doggett (especially him) were written to eventually be together romantically if Mulder (or really DD) didn't return. But I don't think that she could just choose to avoid seeing Doggett romantically because of her loyalty to Mulder.

Of course she could. A man whom she has spent years with, a lot of drama with, a man who was easily possessive and jealous of Scully having interests other than him, would make it very hard for her to start anything with Doggett. And although I think she has an attraction to Doggett, at the time, she was pregnant with Mulders child and he was missing, so she couldnt think about doing something with Doggett - that would be VERY bad Scully! LOL! No matter how much she might have been attracted to Doggett, it would have been a big leap for her to move away from the Mulder-ness in her life.


I mean her loyalty to him in that she put him 1st and gave up a lot for him and was assigned to his quest, personally and professionally. Seeing or thinking of Doggett in a romantic way, if she thought about it TOO much, I think would have lead to her wanting to do something about her thoughts. Because she was loyal to Mulder, she couldnt break away from what she had started with Mulder or the memories of being with Mulder and she did not allow her self to open up to Doggett completely or think about him too much, cause she was meant to be with Mulder and having his child. She would be seen as cheating almost.

Lets also be fair and say that she didnt see Doggett romantically cause she was in love with Mulder at the time or even before she knew Doggett. Sure, fine, whatever, its possible and in the show, pretty much how its written. And thats fine, thats a well behaved Scully. That would be a woman in love. But, I can imagine her years later, after a bad argument with Muder, she remembers Doggett and thinks "Maybe I chose the wrong man."

But then women choose the wrong man all the time. Sometimes women WANT the wrong man. It can be a deep mental contradiction that usually means they are afraid to actually love someone properly. Sometimes wanting dysfunction in order to feel comfortable with things always being wrong in their life, cause they are too used to it or too scared to be happy, sometimes worrying that the happiness might leave them again, as it does come and go, naturally. Some people cant handle that happiness comes and goes and thus want dysfunction in order to feel in control. I do think of Scully like this. I think she had a lot of childhood issues, issues from her father, issues with Mulder, and an inner problem with being open with a man.


Aciano wrote:
I'm a firm believer that you cannot choose or help who you fall in love with. If she did have that ability, she probably wouldn't have chosen to fall for Mulder. I mean, David's cute but I wouldn't want to complicate the relationship if I was in her place.
Im not sure I understand what you are saying smile

..but I agree, you cant really control who you fall in love with to a certain degree but then that turns into a debate on free will and fate and its an interesting subject, cause I dont rule out either. I believe men and women are designed to choose someone subconsciously and consciously. And then I believe in soul mates. But I believe that men and women choose each other practically too. I think its possible to find a man or woman whom you have a massive spark with, but practically they are not the same page as you (morals, career, family, things like that). You need to find both. If you do, then thats really lucky. Sometimes its the other way round, you find a man or woman who tick all your boxes but lack any sexual spark or flare.

Like I said above, sometimes people choose the wrong man or woman on purpose for inner reasons. If they have sorted their inner emotions out they are less blind to fate.

More romantically, a lot of lovers find they fall for the man whom you never thought they would choose, at a time when its not convenient. The man, who you might not have known very long but have an instant attraction to. A fire. Thats not free will. I see fire with her and Doggett, just naturally and how their situations were written. And fate is much sexier and more romantic in entertainment. I see no fire with her and Mulder. They were written in a much more partner-ish way, avoiding any emotional attachment or personal growth with each other but with a bit of flirting on the side. But I always saw that flirting as them acknowledging their were both opposite sex and thats it. I saw more free will between them, there was a lot of fate, cause fate is less techincal, less thought out and less drawn out.


Aciano wrote:
But, in a quick summary, I don't think you would say "you're my constant, my touchstone" to someone you were just settling for or call a "fuck buddy" your "one in five billion".

To me, thats just sappy and out of place. If they were so in love, there would be sparks flying, they wouldnt have to dance around the whole "who is the father" thing, they would live together, they would call eachother by their 1st names. He would treat her with respect all the time, be less selfish.

Thats just me, how I see love. If I saw these two people on my fave show, whom I have been watching for years, flirt and be loyal and caring in moments, then I needed to see more obvious LOVE, natural attraction, sexiness, tenderness, chemistry and more so in their actions then sappy lines now and then. "I love you Scully, I love you Mulder, but Im gonna go home on my own now and see you in the office tomorrow and never talk about this again, until the next season finale maybe." You know? tomato Thats not romantic. And with love, there has to be some romance.

Aciano wrote:I don't think it is realistic to not understand why some MSR shippers can't see the attraction between Scully and Doggett, and then say that you don't see how Mulder loves her.

Not sure I see the comparison as fair at all. But like I said, I think Mulder does love her, just in his own wrong way and to a certainn personal degree. Not in the way a man should love a woman and not how she needs it. She seems disappointed by Mulder too many times, she seems unhappy to be with Mulder, its not clear that they are a couple, that to me means, yeah he cant be without her, but he is just lucky she is trapped and loyal to him, cause he cant treat a woman like that and still have her there happily. Loyalty is nice and good in a relationship but its more on her part. Love is give and take and I see her give more than Mulder. I see "settled for" , I dont really see love when I see them.

You can say Doggett gave more than Scully did but they werent in some sort of relationship like it was implied Scully and Mulder were. And its quite the quintessential romance story of the man falling in love before the woman and the woman taking more time to open up to him.

I just see Mulder's love towards Scully in a more friendship way. And it was meant to be that way for years, it was that way and then the writers did a U Turn, so you can imagine why I was more programmed to seeing Mulder and Scully as great friends over anything else. Great friends with a man and woman is unheard of on TV but thats what made the show original and thats what made their sweet moments more magical. Just cause she is female doesnt mean that kind of love within their friendship has to equal sexual romance.

I dont see Doggett's love in a friendship way, because he barely knew her for long but cared for her so obviously in a romantic way. I see him falling for her quite quickly. You could see it in his eyes and in the script for that matter. Her attention to Doggett was not merely being about him being her partner and then friend, it was her being the Scully who was sweet and kind for a man who showed her that in the 1st place. She was learning again how to be open and caring to one man in a more personal way. That came across more obviously and quickly. Because Doggett would welcome that love once she decided to do it and not run away from her for a case, like Mulder would, or joke with her when she starts talking about something emotional, like Mulder would, I think thats how it would be more obvious of seeing love when you see them.

I dont think I can understand MSR shippers not seeing the attraction to Doggett / Scully, cause its VERY obvious, even to people who dont watch the show, but just cause Mulder says some sappy lines to Scully now and then, has a few "sweet" moments with her over 7 plus years of partnership, its not completely obvious that he PROPERLY loves her, the way he needs to love her in order for her to look and be completely happy.

I think its more obvious she would end up with Doggett because I think there was an attraction there at a time when neither of them should have been thinking about such things. Thats very firey and sexy. Naughty Scully, naughty Doggett. Yet with Mulder and Scully, they went through many many years of not doing anything with eachother, not even progression to getting to that point, that to most casual viewers, critics and anyone whom wasnt watching it for the Will They Wont They Ship, would just not see them or buy them as anything more than partners.

Aciano wrote:
Mulder seems to value her life above his own. In Pusher he doesn't fight much (if at all) when the gun is to his own head but puts up quite a struggle when it's aimed at Scully, and in Dod Kalm he makes Scully drink the water even though he knows he will die without it. I really don't think he would die for someone who was just a "fuck buddy".
This is season 2 and 3. These are moments when they did not sleep with eachother and were not even close to it.

I think also they might die for their partner who might also be their "fuck buddy" on the side. John Rambo would die for Colonel Trautman in Rambo, it doesnt mean they are in love!!! Its an honour thing.

But I was talking about what happened later, much later, season 7 -ish, that they acted like or were "fuck buddy" material - in that they might kiss now and then, sleep together, not talk about it, not live together or go on dates. That kind of thing.

Aciano wrote:
Even by season 2, he cannot function while she is abducted and in the hospital, even attempting to quit the FBI and leave the X-Files. The only reason he keeps his job is because Skinner finds his letter of resignation unacceptable and rips it up. That, to me, is not a man who cares more about the X-Files than Scully.
Well, the reason he doesnt quit is Skinner makes him see that Mulder's quest with the paranormal is something to be proud of, and that he is a good and strong enough character to look further into paranormal experiences than most people are. But he wants to quit cause he has lost Scully and himself, thus any reason to continue. Its a great piece of writing.

That Mulder was not obviously there later on in the show, but then I, again, like a broken record, I credit Morgan and Wong for writing a more loveable Mulder (for audience and Scully), instead, when Carter wrote Mulder, he was more selfish. Like I said, if that One Breath Mulder was around in the latter years, I would have been okay if they started something romantically.

Aciano wrote:
...for Scully to react more to Diana than with Monica tells me that she isn't as territorial of Doggett.......... the fact that seeing Mulder with another woman affects her so much does say that she thinks of Mulder as "hers" and doesn't want Diana interferring with that. Whereas with Doggett, she doesn't mind another woman taking her place completely.

Again, its not a fair comparison to me, cause
1)Diana was Mulder's former lover and was holding his hand not long after first re-meeting with each other.
2)Reyes was not told to be Doggett's former lover. But also I just dont see Reyes as being displayed as a romantic thing to Doggett in any other way, when she met her. I didnt get the sense that Scully saw anything.
3) the fact she is not like this with Doggett to me is cause a) she is with Mulder and b) she feels more secure with Doggett and how he feels about her, than she has ever felt with Mulder. I have said that before. I dont think Mulder (at the point of season 5) was making much indication that Scully was whom he wanted to be with.


However, I would like to point out again, I did actually see Scully be quite cold and jealous that Doggett was listening to Monica's open minded theories rather than hers, "Enjoy your new company"...to me, that had a hint of jealousy in it. But again, Reyes was not a former lover of Doggetts, just an old friend or someone whom Doggett had worked with and we never got the impression that any relationship between Reyes and Doggett was implied, unlike Fowley and Mulder.

I think it was more to do with Diana than Mulder, which must be why Diana comes up as the one or main woman Scully was jealous of with Mulder. I think Diana struck a nerve wth Scully cause of the case they were on, where her scientific mind wasnt really being listened to when it came to Gibson, whereas Fowley displayed an opinion closer to Mulders (thus making Scully's theories seem wrong) and I also think she suspected Fowley was being disloyal to Mulder. And she was. Its like we see her find "Mulder" was doing that blonde secretary in Dreamland, in season 6, she didnt seem as sensitive about that as she was with Diana.


To me, the whole jealousy argument just is so strange. Cause I just dont see it as proof of anything either way. To me, it simply signifies insecurities and Scully and Mulder were single and so any woman or man becoming a threat would naturally mean some sort of jealousy...but to compare this when she met Reyes, doesnt make sense to me, cause Scully was with Mulder, and would not let herself think of Doggett romantically because of Mulder. So its not a black and white comparison.

Aciano wrote:
I agree that this means she feels secure in that relationship, because the relationship she feels with him is purely friendship and Monica certainly doesn't put that in danger.

Then why are we comparing this? If Doggett was just Scully's friend, then why would she be jealous? She has Mulder and Doggett is just her friend, right? When this Diana thing happened with Scully and Mulder, and Mulder has made no move, she is gonna think, "whats Mulder up to with this old flame who seems to have the same theories with him? He's more attracted to her than me?"...Its quite a pointless comparison and doesnt really show much to me if you compare that to Reyes and the fact Scully has a baby by another man,and sappy emails from him. biggrin
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Fri 12 Aug 2011 - 20:53

Okay, so I've been absent for a few days (okay, weeks)... does anyone realize how long it's going to take me to read this thread? It looks like a good discussion, but I'm going to have to start at the beginning. :)
avatar
JeSouhaite
Meepmork

Posts : 68

http://www.xfilesuniverse.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Fri 12 Aug 2011 - 21:39

Aciano wrote:1. What made you choose DSR instead of MSR? It seems to me that MSR is the obvious choice. Did you start off as a MSR shipper and switch? Or did you discover the X-Files during season 8 or 9? Or maybe you watched the entire way through and just didn't want to see them have a romantic relationship. But I think I would find it very hard to keep watching the show and being a NoRomo during seasons 6 and 7.

2. Do you think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship? Or was it more of something that you wanted to happen/thought would happen in the future? And if you do think they were together, when?

3. Do you think that, if Mulder hadn't left in the beginning of season 9 and the three of them were in that basement office, Scully would choose Doggett over Mulder? Or would Doggett even fight for Scully, knowing that Mulder and Scully have a child together?

Okay, I have just read the first post, and that's all I've read. SO. I shall answer the questions before I read any more.

Answer for Q1: This question was asked for DSR fans. I'm not really a DSR-shipper, but I can most certainly see how Scully could be attracted to Doggett and get involved in a relationship with him. I enjoyed the MSR all the way up through season 7. At no time through season 7 did they ever reveal that Mulder and Scully were actually involved (... well, until Requiem happened, of course, the viewer still had to assume). So, even as an MSR-shipper, season 8 rolled around. Yeah, I was one of those that was skeptical of Doggett in the beginning; however, I really feel that a bond was created between Doggett and Scully. I think that the bond between them was sparked by Doggett's care and concern for Scully. I think Doggett allowed an emotional bond between the two. Yes, Scully's search for Mulder does not cease after getting to know Doggett, but while that search goes on, she does continue to live her life and depend on others. Fortunately, she has Doggett there during her time of strife. (And, then... Mulder comes back... oh brother... no comment...)

Answer for Q2: Do I think that D & S had an off-screen relationship (... etc)? Umm... My guess is "no". For several years, M&S didn't jump in the sack. If the question had been "Were D & S building a relationship", I would say "Yes".

Answer for Q3: If the 3 of them were forced to work together... I WOULD BE RIVETED TO THE TV. I can't imagine the chemistry from that Love Triangle. :)
avatar
JeSouhaite
Meepmork

Posts : 68

http://www.xfilesuniverse.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Sat 13 Aug 2011 - 11:14

I still find it hilarious that after all Scully's crying and crap that she really doesn't follow up on the search for Mulder until it is brought back to her attention in "TINH". I know that season 8 had a lot of MOTW episodes to show the growth of partnership/friendship/relationship between John and Dana, but when we did see anyone searching for Mulder it was Doggett ("The Gift"), not Scully. I find that interesting that she is supposed to be missing him so much, and how in "Within/Without" she didn't think that Doggett was capable of doing what it takes to find Mulder, and then for the entire time leading up to Mulder being found dead in a field, she doesn't do a thing about searching for him - that's all on Doggett, and he does it.

This has always made me wonder if deep, deep down that Scully may have been relieved that Mulder was gone - especially given that he was one of the people (herself being the other) holding her back from living the life that she wants to live (and then with him gone she doesn't have to hang onto Mulder's way of life, and she can live her life how she wants to). That's just how I interpret her inactivity in the search for Mulder before "TINH" in season 8.
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Sat 13 Aug 2011 - 13:33

JeSouhaite wrote:
Answer for Q3: If the 3 of them were forced to work together... I WOULD BE RIVETED TO THE TV. I can't imagine the chemistry from that Love Triangle. :)

Seriously!! SO DAMN SEXY AND EXCITING to have a serious love triangle on the side. That would have been so funny to see more of!
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Sat 13 Aug 2011 - 13:36

Dana Doggett wrote:I still find it hilarious that after all Scully's crying and crap that she really doesn't follow up on the search for Mulder until it is brought back to her attention in "TINH". I know that season 8 had a lot of MOTW episodes to show the growth of partnership/friendship/relationship between John and Dana, but when we did see anyone searching for Mulder it was Doggett ("The Gift"), not Scully. I find that interesting that she is supposed to be missing him so much, and how in "Within/Without" she didn't think that Doggett was capable of doing what it takes to find Mulder, and then for the entire time leading up to Mulder being found dead in a field, she doesn't do a thing about searching for him - that's all on Doggett, and he does it.

This has always made me wonder if deep, deep down that Scully may have been relieved that Mulder was gone - especially given that he was one of the people (herself being the other) holding her back from living the life that she wants to live (and then with him gone she doesn't have to hang onto Mulder's way of life, and she can live her life how she wants to). That's just how I interpret her inactivity in the search for Mulder before "TINH" in season 8.

This is a great point. Though I just blame the writers for being so stupid to not have Scully think about looking for Mulder more in the MOTW eps or talk about wanting to. I always did think it was strange...and I also thought, cause i was a fan of Doggett, and she was enjoying Doggett's company, that she was starting to enjoy not having Mulder around for a change. I always love that he was the one still searching for Mulder, and solved so many, if not most of, the S8 XFiles cases, and not Scully, and yet he was the one whom Skinner said in "Three Words" that he doesnt know much of what he is doing on the Files. rolleyes
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Lish31 on Sun 14 Aug 2011 - 15:13

Wow, this is quite a thread and I'm slowly making my way through it so I apologize if I've missed something or cover something that's already been done...BUT I just want to add one comment here before I continue.

I agree that when looking at the Mulder/Scully relationship it can be considered as unhealthy for both parties. There have definitely been times that I've been disappointed and even angry with the way it has been developed. But I think that these two are genuinely in love with each other and would never willingly hurt the other. That doesn't mean that they always do the right thing, but what human being does? I'm not interested in defending either of their actions over the span of the show, but I will say..give Scully some credit. Some of what I've read and interpreted in this thread is that Mulder has her in some kind of trap where he basically uses and abuses her and she sits back and takes it because she thinks she can't leave (please feel free to correct me if this is totally off base blush ). Yes I think that she would be loyal to Mulder, maybe to the extreme, but she isn't so weak that she couldn't walk away if she wanted to. She has her weaknesses but I never thought that she felt stuck in a relationship with him. I don't think that she had to settle for anything less than she wanted.

I know that people don't always make the right choices when it comes to love and sometimes they do stay with people who treat them like dirt. But I just don't think that's the case here. That's only my opinion and interpretation of the material we've been given.

And, for the record, I do think that she was attracted to Doggett and I completely see all of the possibilities between the two of them as a couple. I have no issues with DSR, but I think Scully made her choice willingly and happily.

OK...that is all.... smile
avatar
Lish31
Mulder's Orange Juice

Posts : 112

http://txffanbook.weebly.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by sknight on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 12:44

There are plenty of cases where Scully is in some dangerous situation and Mulder does absolutely anything to get her out of it.

It doesn't count because it's always his fault she's in danger to begin with. It's his quest that she got caught up in and as a result she lost her sister, she got cancer, she lost her ovas, and on countless occasions she almost lost her life.
avatar
sknight
Detective John Kresge

Posts : 217

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by sknight on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 12:49

Doggett never put her in danger and always thought of her needs first while Mulder always ignored the fact that Scully wanted more out of life than chasing monsters in the dark. If Mulder really loved Scully he would have told her to go live her life, but instead he thought only of how he needed her as a sidekick. Sidekick, not partner, because he didn't listen to her and he never gave her her own desk. Fact.
avatar
sknight
Detective John Kresge

Posts : 217

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 13:11

Very true. cheer
avatar
Cindersmommy
Pod Monster

Posts : 1490

http://lilangel387.tripod.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by sknight on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 13:29

I know this is purely speculation, but there’s not much more we can do because Carter didn’t give us a single clue on what happened during those 6 years. What I do know is that Mulder and Scully are both smart people and I refuse to believe that either one would continue suffering in a failing relationship for 6 years. That’s just my take on things..

Plenty of smart people stay in bad relationships. Look at Hillary Clinton, whether you agree with her politics or not (I do) she is very inteligent but she stays with her cheating husband. Being inteligent doesn not grant you immunity from bad decison making and emotional ties.

Sorry, I just found this thread, it's massive and a lot of the arguing has already been done for me, so I'm just going to skim and see where I can throw my two cents in...
avatar
sknight
Detective John Kresge

Posts : 217

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 13:39

sknight wrote:
I know this is purely speculation, but there’s not much more we can do because Carter didn’t give us a single clue on what happened during those 6 years. What I do know is that Mulder and Scully are both smart people and I refuse to believe that either one would continue suffering in a failing relationship for 6 years. That’s just my take on things..

Plenty of smart people stay in bad relationships. Look at Hillary Clinton, whether you agree with her politics or not (I do) she is very inteligent but she stays with her cheating husband. Being inteligent doesn not grant you immunity from bad decison making and emotional ties.

Sorry, I just found this thread, it's massive and a lot of the arguing has already been done for me, so I'm just going to skim and see where I can throw my two cents in...

Yeah, I dont think being smart academically means that you are smart in love at all. Love is much more complicated. And lots get it wrong unfortunately, Scully is not immune to this stupidity just cause she was a doctor or FBI agent.
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 14:54

Scully's a retard for staying with Mulder, IMHO. I have no more respect for the woman for doing that to herself. It's obvious she's very unhappy, even if she is the one who decided to stay involved with Mulder and not to leave him. I cannot respect a woman who makes irrational decisions like this. She probably knows she needs better, but decides to be stupid and stay with him.

Sorry I don't have much to add anymore to the discussion. I'm in the XF dumps right now and I'm afraid anything I say about MSR v. DSR may not be all that kindly worded at this point smile I'm sure you all understand. I'm still reading the comments though so keep 'em coming.
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 14:58

Dana Doggett wrote:Scully's a retard for staying with Mulder, IMHO. I have no more respect for the woman for doing that to herself. It's obvious she's very unhappy, even if she is the one who decided to stay involved with Mulder and not to leave him. I cannot respect a woman who makes irrational decisions like this. She probably knows she needs better, but decides to be stupid and stay with him.

Why do you think her character stays with him when she probably knows she needs better?
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 15:06

He's weakened her into believing that he's the only one who wants her. His work/Mulder himself drove Scully away from her family and her other friends so that she only has him. It's emotional abuse and with any kind of abuse there are emotional reactions to it - I think I brought it up earlier in the thread that with Scully I think it's a lot like Stockholm Syndrome (a form of PTSD in which the victim attaches themselves to their captor/abuser) - begins to see things in the way the abuser sees them (thus Scully becoming a believer), sympathizing with the abuser, falling in love with the abuser - it's a reaction that a victim takes on in order to better survive the experience.

At least it seems like Scully spends most of her time at the hospital now, and Mulder keeps himself occupied in his man cave. Perhaps that distance they've created between themselves is what allowed Scully to find the strength to tell Mulder she's not coming home to him (hence a breakup) in IWTBarf - then with him telling her he won't help a missing FBI agent unless she tags along with him to D.C. - they spend more time together (just like old times *rolls eyes*) and Scully is reminded of what drew her to Mulder in the first place and thus acts as she did in the series - attaching herself to him again, thus bringing her home to him in the end - even despite the "fact" that this is probably not what she really wants to do.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 15:29

Wow, thats dark but I agree. I also think that some people dont know how to love or open up and want to be with someone who doesnt love them the way they should cause it means they dont have to love them fully or open up fully. Its like being scared of being hurt or disappointed once in a while by the one who really loves you. Whereas if this comes from the one who doesnt love you or treat you right, then its not unusual to deal with, disappointment is the norm.

Does anyone think its a contradiction to be with Mulder when she shows she is defending wanting to do surgery on that boy in the film, when the Religious people at the hospital were against it, in that she is going against faith in other worldly things, like Mulder supports? And then the guy who Mulder supports is a Priest, who molested boys. Doesnt ALL of that make her really distant to what Mulder believes in and supports?
avatar
gorgclaud
Narc!

Posts : 5809

http://doggmaticproductions.webs.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Lish31 on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 20:30

sknight wrote:If Mulder really loved Scully he would have told her to go live her life, but instead he thought only of how he needed her as a sidekick. Sidekick, not partner, because he didn't listen to her and he never gave her her own desk. Fact.


from FTF -
MULDER: No it isn't! You were right to want to quit! You were right
to want to leave me! You should get as far away from me as you can!
I'm not going to watch you die, Scully, because of some hollow
personal cause of mine. Go be a doctor. Go be a doctor while you
still can.


from Requiem -
MULDER: It's not worth it, Scully.
SCULLY: What?
MULDER: I want you to go home.
SCULLY: Oh, Mulder, I'm going to be fine.
MULDER: No, I've been thinking about it. Looking at you tonight, holding that
baby... knowing everything that's been taken away from you. A chance for motherhood
and your health and that baby. I think that... I don't know, maybe they're right.
SCULLY: Who's right?
MULDER: The FBI. Maybe what they say is true, though for all the wrong reasons.
It's the personal costs that are too high.
MULDER: There so much more you need to do with your life. There's so much more
than this. There has to be an end, Scully.
avatar
Lish31
Mulder's Orange Juice

Posts : 112

http://txffanbook.weebly.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by sknight on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 20:53

Lish31 wrote:
sknight wrote:If Mulder really loved Scully he would have told her to go live her life, but instead he thought only of how he needed her as a sidekick. Sidekick, not partner, because he didn't listen to her and he never gave her her own desk. Fact.


from FTF -
MULDER: No it isn't! You were right to want to quit! You were right
to want to leave me! You should get as far away from me as you can!
I'm not going to watch you die, Scully, because of some hollow
personal cause of mine. Go be a doctor. Go be a doctor while you
still can.


from Requiem -
MULDER: It's not worth it, Scully.
SCULLY: What?
MULDER: I want you to go home.
SCULLY: Oh, Mulder, I'm going to be fine.
MULDER: No, I've been thinking about it. Looking at you tonight, holding that
baby... knowing everything that's been taken away from you. A chance for motherhood
and your health and that baby. I think that... I don't know, maybe they're right.
SCULLY: Who's right?
MULDER: The FBI. Maybe what they say is true, though for all the wrong reasons.
It's the personal costs that are too high.
MULDER: There so much more you need to do with your life. There's so much more
than this. There has to be an end, Scully.

yikes Alright, you win this one!!!
avatar
sknight
Detective John Kresge

Posts : 217

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 21:02

I have learned something today. I didn't know that "Stockholm Syndrome" was associated with a "condition". OT - the band, Muse, has a song with this title; now, I have to listen to the lyrics again.

Gorg & DD, you've posed some deep thoughts here. However, I want to go back to DanaDoggett's quote below:

Dana Doggett wrote:I still find it hilarious that after all Scully's crying and crap that she really doesn't follow up on the search for Mulder until it is brought back to her attention in "TINH". I know that season 8 had a lot of MOTW episodes to show the growth of partnership/friendship/relationship between John and Dana, but when we did see anyone searching for Mulder it was Doggett ("The Gift"), not Scully.

I wonder if part of this was meant to help illustrate Doggett's honor and integrity. By lessening Scully's search (on screen), Doggett's intention of finding Mulder becomes more focused for the viewer. Doggett tells Scully that he will find Mulder. He works to keep that promise. If the show had provided more of the opposite, would the potential of DSR have been as viable? My guess is no; so, I think it was a smart move on the writer's part.

Plus, didn't we have enough angst seeing Scully pining over Mulder, anyways? :) I just don't think I could handle ep after ep filled with angst. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to see Scully search for Mulder, but I don't think I could have handled an entire season with constant references. This is precisely why I think the relationship that she builds with Doggett is wonderful. Scully really needed Doggett. I'm glad he was there for her and gave her the care and concern that she needed. We got to watch a beautiful relationship develop. So, I'm glad that they played it the way they did.
avatar
JeSouhaite
Meepmork

Posts : 68

http://www.xfilesuniverse.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by sknight on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 22:03

JeSouhaite wrote:I have learned something today. I didn't know that "Stockholm Syndrome" was associated with a "condition". OT - the band, Muse, has a song with this title; now, I have to listen to the lyrics again.

Gorg & DD, you've posed some deep thoughts here. However, I want to go back to DanaDoggett's quote below:

Dana Doggett wrote:I still find it hilarious that after all Scully's crying and crap that she really doesn't follow up on the search for Mulder until it is brought back to her attention in "TINH". I know that season 8 had a lot of MOTW episodes to show the growth of partnership/friendship/relationship between John and Dana, but when we did see anyone searching for Mulder it was Doggett ("The Gift"), not Scully.

I wonder if part of this was meant to help illustrate Doggett's honor and integrity. By lessening Scully's search (on screen), Doggett's intention of finding Mulder becomes more focused for the viewer. Doggett tells Scully that he will find Mulder. He works to keep that promise. If the show had provided more of the opposite, would the potential of DSR have been as viable? My guess is no; so, I think it was a smart move on the writer's part.

Plus, didn't we have enough angst seeing Scully pining over Mulder, anyways? :) I just don't think I could handle ep after ep filled with angst. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to see Scully search for Mulder, but I don't think I could have handled an entire season with constant references. This is precisely why I think the relationship that she builds with Doggett is wonderful. Scully really needed Doggett. I'm glad he was there for her and gave her the care and concern that she needed. We got to watch a beautiful relationship develop. So, I'm glad that they played it the way they did.

Wow dude, that's pretty mind blowing. I never saw it like that but you make an excellent point.
avatar
sknight
Detective John Kresge

Posts : 217

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 22:36

I looked up some "stockholm syndrome + love relationships" on Google scholar and found a few things to quote in which I can tie it in with the Mulder/Scully relationship.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Stockholm Syndrome is recognised as a psychological phenomenon whereby hostages identify and ally with their captors.

Just putting this here for those of you who want a quick reference to what Stockholm Syndrome is. With regard to Mulder/Scully relationship, I replace the word "captor" with "abuser" or "controller".

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The stories show patterns of verbal and emotional abuse in the form of hypercritical, demeaning barrages with or without physical or sexual violence. Abuse alternates with devotion, love, and often passionate sex.

I know a lot of Mulder and MSR fans view Mulder's jokes toward Scully as just that, jokes. Or when he speaks down to her as him being joking with her, but I think that we can also view this verbal Mulder behaviour towards Scully as "demeaning", when he speaks his opinion about her not believing in what he believes perhaps can also be seen as "hypercritical" - as the above says this type of abuse does not need to have physical or sexual violence. Then just as he is demeaning and hypercritical of Scully, he can also show her his devotion, and his love - and we can assume from IWTB that they have had more than a handful of passionate sex since they are intimately involved. Then again on another day he goes back to being critical and demeaning towards Scully. This is Mulder's controlling/abusive nature towards Scully.

The abuser controls his or her partner with jealousy, obsessiveness, and suicide threats as well as with physical and verbal violence.

I think this says it all if you know the Mulder character and how he behaved with Scully on the series/movies. Not that his attempted suicide in "Gethsemane" was directed at Scully in order to keep a tight grip on her, it wasn't, but Mulder shows jealousy towards Doggett when he returns in season 8 (and I'm sure on other occasions before he was involved with Scully), over all nine seasons and both movies Mulder showed an obsessiveness towards Scully - so two out of three in this particular description is enough to prove to me (even though I already know it) that Mulder is holding Scully in an emotionally abusive relationship.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

... bonding with an abusive partner...

Core Stockholm Syndrome, characterized by cognitive distortions and other strategies for coping with abuse.

Psychological Damage, marked by depression, low self-esteem, and loss of sense of self.

Love-Dependence, typified by the feeling that one cannot survive without one's partner's love.

I believe the "cognitive distortions" in relation to the relationship between Mulder and Scully come in the form of Scully taking on Mulder's beliefs in order to try to please her partner. If she agrees with him she's less likely to have his abuse thrown her way - in this case Mulder is an emotional/verbal abuser - and if Scully were to disagree with him he is more likely to put her down and make her feel bad about her beliefs or guilty for not siding with him.

I think this thread has delved in quite a bit into Scully's marked unhappiness/depression of the last few seasons and especially in IWTB (when she and Mulder's relationship is more established and has a few years under it). In the course of the series we see Scully go from a confident woman who stands up for what she believes in - and then after spending more and more time with Mulder, and eventually getting romantically involved with him, she seems more depressed, has a lower self-esteem, and lost sight of herself.

Love-Dependence - well... I think this is the sole reason why Scully decides to stay involved with Mulder. Mulder and his lifestyle have pushed all of Scully's family and friends away from her, and all she has left is Mulder. She has come to believe that Mulder is all she needs to survive in this world, and that his love is the only love available to her.

On a very, very old version of mine and my sister's XF forum there was an entire thread discussion on this topic. I wish I had saved all the comments and analysis from that discussion back in the day (of course how was I to know we'd get hacked and everything deleted?), because if I still had it all, I'd repost. It was the longest discussion thread, and the most interesting discussion on the forum. I may still have my hand-written notes about it somewhere (doubt I can find them anytime soon).
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 22:52

Wow, incredibly insightful, Dana Doggett. You know what, I think you should write a book. You should write a book about all this. My only response to this is... "Wow".

(albeit, I'm shallow.)
avatar
JeSouhaite
Meepmork

Posts : 68

http://www.xfilesuniverse.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 22:58

LOL And this is me writing this up with a headache and little sleep (and waiting to get on my college website to try to get into a class at the proper campus location that I intended). I think you'd have better chances at me writing an essay about this (Mulder/Scully and Stockholm Syndrome - tentative title). I'd be afraid to post it anywhere other than here on SoX simply because the last time I tackled this subject openly I got death threats, flames, hack attempts on my email, anonymous messages from my old website contact form, etc., etc. XF/MSR fans were not happy with my insight on the darker side of the MSR. I think they wanted happy, fluffy bunnies and butterflies for their perception of the MSR and when something more interesting and analytic came out they FREAKED THE FRICK OUT. Poor fools.

If I can come up with anything more to add to this, I will. I know on the old forum that I had pages more of this (including citing moments in the series and FTF - since IWTBarf hadn't come out yet).

I like analyzing dark MSR, I find the relationship much more interesting when viewed in this way than as an ideal relationship that I fear most XF/MSR fans view the relationship (and that scares me about what they go after for their own lives - just being honest here).

Anyway, when I'm tired, I ramble on and probably don't make much sense. I should go watch a M&W episode as I wait for enrollment to open up again smile

PS: It's good to be shallow :D
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 23:06

I hope your head ache eases and that you get good rest tonight, Dana Doggett.

(Don't get me started on hackers/stalkers... there's no room for those kinds.) Sweet dreams to you.
avatar
JeSouhaite
Meepmork

Posts : 68

http://www.xfilesuniverse.com

Back to top Go down

Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 15 Aug 2011 - 23:13

JeSouhaite wrote:I hope your head ache eases and that you get good rest tonight, Dana Doggett.

(Don't get me started on hackers/stalkers... there's no room for those kinds.)

I just took a Tylenol, hopefully it will kick in soon. Once I get enrolled I'm off to sleepy time.

Sweet dreams to you.

This totally reminds me that I actually had a Doggett/Scully dream last night that helped me figure out a scene for my novel! And lucky me, I was in the role of Scully and walked side-by-side next to Doggett during a case cheer It was one of those dreams that felt so real, like I can still hear his voice in my head wub I hope I can revisit this dream, it was really helping me figure out a scene for my story LOL

G'night!
avatar
Cassiopeia
Browncoat

Posts : 9674

http://www.doggettscully.com/

Back to top Go down

Page 4 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum