MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 10:28

I love your ideas Cassie, you should write an essay on this subject. cheer Screw the shippers and poop on them, some of them have no imgagination anyway. devious Shoot the bunnies and butterflies!!!! devil LONG LIVE DARK MSR AND CASSIE!!!!(Who makes it fun to read.) woohoo
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 14:28

I mean the rabid, vapid,screwy, butt kissing shippers who love dumb ass Mulder and his follower weepy Scully. not the wonderful lady shippers here who have lots of imgagination. cheer


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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by JeSouhaite on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 21:10



Right on, Cindersmommy!!
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Tue 16 Aug 2011, 21:41

Thanks, that's how I feel. biggrin
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 07:09

Hmmm, I was watching "Within" from TV last night, and I remembered that Mulder didnt tell Scully he was visiting his mums grave a lot weekends nor that he was DYING. Communication is a massive problem in their relationship.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 07:11

sknight wrote:
Lish31 wrote:
sknight wrote:If Mulder really loved Scully he would have told her to go live her life, but instead he thought only of how he needed her as a sidekick. Sidekick, not partner, because he didn't listen to her and he never gave her her own desk. Fact.


from FTF -
MULDER: No it isn't! You were right to want to quit! You were right
to want to leave me! You should get as far away from me as you can!
I'm not going to watch you die, Scully, because of some hollow
personal cause of mine. Go be a doctor. Go be a doctor while you
still can.


from Requiem -
MULDER: It's not worth it, Scully.
SCULLY: What?
MULDER: I want you to go home.
SCULLY: Oh, Mulder, I'm going to be fine.
MULDER: No, I've been thinking about it. Looking at you tonight, holding that
baby... knowing everything that's been taken away from you. A chance for motherhood
and your health and that baby. I think that... I don't know, maybe they're right.
SCULLY: Who's right?
MULDER: The FBI. Maybe what they say is true, though for all the wrong reasons.
It's the personal costs that are too high.
MULDER: There so much more you need to do with your life. There's so much more
than this. There has to be an end, Scully.

yikes Alright, you win this one!!!

BUT, I think actions speak louder than words - Hmmm? tomato


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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 09:08

Then why does it still seem to be a sick relationship, both Mulder and Scully needed therapy. blink
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:35

Definately. To be fair, Scully did have a little bit of counselling. But out of the box, from the birds eye view, after all is said and done, their relationship is really REALLY messed up.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 10:58

Yeah Mulder needs lots of counselling, he did lose his sister, but so did Dana. biggrin But that doesn't give Mulder the right to drag Scully down to rest in his darkness, friends or whatever shouldn't do that to each other. blink
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 12:15

Im really surprised Mulder didnt get any counselling considering his dad was shot dead - his dad died infront of him, his sister went missing and never returned, his mum committed suicide. Considering how he was open minded, I think counselling would have been somethiing he would do. Definately something he should have done.

BUT, but, maybe he was a martyr?? Maybe he covered up all his pain by looking into the paranormal to make these events more normal to him. Either way, I would not suggest he hooks up with anyone until he has sorted his head out.


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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 12:53

I think simply put that if both relationships had happened: Mulder/Scully and Doggett/Scully that at the end of the day Doggett/Scully is the best relationship in terms of being healthy, supportive, respectful and loving of each other.

I blame this simply on Mulder's inability to see past his own nose and into what is important to other people in his life. He's too egocentric, self-absorbed, and disrespectful to anyone who doesn't see things the way that he sees things. He just doesn't understand any view other than his own, despite supposedly having been a great psychologist/profiler. The man has issues that are deep that - IMO - prevent him from being capable of carrying on in a healthy realtionship - not only with himself - but with anyone else.

Doggett is the exact opposite of Mulder and that is why I think if Doggett and Scully had ended up together that we wouldn't be witnessing such character destruction and weakening of Scully's character - Doggett would never do or say anything to Scully to make her feel bad about herself or guilty. He would listen to her and be supportive of her, etc., etc.

Doggett/Scully wins out over Mulder/Scully in my book, and that's just about all I have to say about it.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 13:09

Yeah. Can you imagine Scully looking depressed as she was in IWTB? If thats what love brings you then that AINT love. Not in my book anyways. Doggett would be attentive and loving. Simple.

Theres FAR FAR FAR more Mulder did wrong to Scully than right. And in the short space of time, Doggett did far more loving and caring things towards Scully that override Mulder very easily. I feel like the more I see Mulder and Scully together in episodes, the more I talk about it, the more people 'defend', the more I really dont see it or get it at all and the more it makes SENSE her and Doggett should be together.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 13:37

Well said ladies, I can't see how anybody can defend Mulder when he treated Scully like crap right in front of our eyes. blink I have a soft spot in my heart for JD and will always have. wub I will always love the way some people treat Mulder and Dana in fanfic better then CC did on the small screen. chicken dance
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 14:19

People will gravitate towards what they gravitate to, so it's fine by me that ppl 'ship Mulder/Scully - even though I will never understand how they can still support it as such a great thing after how we last saw it, and how it was in the last two seasons of the series.

I get supporting it and wanting it to happen in the early years of the show, I liked it back then, but as it became a true relationship (within the world of TXF) it just wasn't a good thing for either character. I guess it just comes down to continuing to support it after it went down the crapper just because one doesn't want to have supported it for so long, and wanted it for so long - to then just stop supporting it after so many years of vocalizing just how badly said fans wanted smthg to happen between M&S. I'm just glad that there are MSR fans out there that recognize that the relationship between M&S isn't a healthy one, and who don't like how Carter decided to portray the relationship, and see it for what it is rather than for what they wished it could have been.

But yeah, John/Dana, that would have been better in the end, and so much more interesting to watch happen in those last two seasons, and if they had hooked up, IWTBarf would have been more lively too, and not so down in the dumps. Speaking theoretically, of course.

I can defend Mulder just by saying that the poor guy never felt loved and therefore doesn't know how to love properly - so he approaches loving Scully in a childish/obsessive manner that maybe he doesn't realize isn't healthy for either he or Scully. I don't think that Mulder purposely treated Scully like crap, he loves her and cares for her, I don't believe he'd ever purposely do that to her. It's just he is not mentally or emotionally developed/grown up enough to know how to behave in a relationship and because of that is why the relationship between he and Scully is not a healthy one.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 14:29

I completely agree. Well put.

The Anti Hero Mulder from the early years, the Mulder who seemed haunted by the things he was missing in his life, the people who were missing, meant he was a loveable and tortured soul. But making him too egotistical and arrogant made all of that inner issues irrelevant to me in order to defend him. Its just bad writing...and when that all happened (circa season 5) I could see a mile off that Scully should not be with Mulder due to his personality. And that had nothing to do with Doggett (obviously, cause I decided this way before Doggett came.) . Seeing Doggett, after all the men that interacted with Scully, it was a win win situation for her in my view, and I couldnt have imagined anyone more perfect.

I agree, that once being a shipper, to support it and enjoy their early years for so long, means its hard to let go of that and thus I suspect a lot of them support it due to the past scenes or nostaglia and then make up reasons to support the latter years that werent so rosey. I was a shipper (to some degree - though I could never really label me clearly like that) back then and it was quite depressing when I saw their relationship get rather bitter and sour. But as long as the episodes were good, that wasnt what I focused on. I wonder why other fans only focus on the Ship of Mulder and Scully, even when a lot of them admit it got really sour later on?
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 14:56

It's like that discussion I had with a MSR fan on another forum via PM where they asked me if I would still support DSR if it was written poorly, and assumed that because I supported it that meant that even if it was poorly written that I would still support it. My actual answer was "no, if DSR was written poorly I would not continue to support it" - this person went on to say that yes, the MSR was written poorly but that didn't matter to him/her because they supported MSR before it went sour. Just because this person still supports MSR despite how poorly it was written does not mean I would be the same with DSR.

Anyway, there's an entire thread about this here:
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I would still enjoy the DSR before it went to crap, but I wouldn't support it and I doubt I would still like it if it was written poorly. Just as I am with Mulder/Scully - I like it when it was good, and I can't stand it when it went bad. I'm not so obsessed with my relationship pairing preferences that despite how poorly they could be written that I would still support it.

I think this is a prime example of the mentality of a lot of 'shippers that continue to support the MSR even though they themselves say that it was written poorly.

I think theorizing on the psychology of MSR fans who focus on the MSR over all other things on the show, even after the 'ship went bad, is a whole other discussion in itself. I'm sure I could come up with theories about why they are like this, but this isn't the thread for that wink
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 15:37

Yes, as I explained in that thread, if DSR actually happened and turned sour for whatever reason or was written poorly, then why the hell would I still enjoy seeing a couple miserable together or do things together that didnt make sense. The reason I love DSR is cause most of it, if not all, was lovely and sexy and enjoyable.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 16:17

You ladies are so right, Mulder didn't make Scully feel like crap on purpose, he's just not grown up and he can't help himself. angel I can't tell a good MSR from a
bad one, can you guys explain please? cheer
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 16:26

Cindersmommy wrote: angel I can't tell a good MSR from a
bad one, can you guys explain please? cheer

blink What do you mean?
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 17:50

Well Claudine, when you read a MSR is it chessy or is it worth reading all the way through. biggrin Not that I read the things, can't seem to do that. biggrin
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 22:10

Cindersmommy wrote:Well Claudine, when you read a MSR is it chessy or is it worth reading all the way through. biggrin Not that I read the things, can't seem to do that. biggrin

I haven't read a MSR in a long, long time. But having said that, I do have a small handful of MSR fanfics that I do recommend should anyone ask...

"Chilled" by Forte
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Not really MSR, but good Mulder and Scully circa season 7 - rated R.

"Truest Truths" by CindyET
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Deals with the idea that Scully was raped in her past and how Mulder treats her well despite not knowing this truth. Definite MSR story though (NC17).

"Thin Walls" by alanna
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I actually like this one because it touches a bit on Doggett/Scully while keeping Mulder/Scully completely intact. This is one of my favorites. MSR, Doggett POV - rated R.

Those are the only MSR fics that I have enjoyed so far. I don't go out of my way to read MSR, but if anyone has any that are good (and by 'good' I don't mean 'schmoopy'), please let me know (and make sure they aren't very long, MSR needs to be fairly short for me to want to give it a try).

Oh and I wrote this MSR story:

"Connection" by Dana Doggett
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Any feedback I've gotten from MSR fans on this one is positive and they like how it fits the series and how M&S are 'in character' :) It's circa "The Field Where I Died" - season 4. Rating PG.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Thu 18 Aug 2011, 22:34

Thanks Cassie, I'll check them out. biggrin
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:06

Cindersmommy wrote:Well Claudine, when you read a MSR is it chessy or is it worth reading all the way through. biggrin Not that I read the things, can't seem to do that. biggrin

I dont read MSR fanfiction. I didnt like them as a couple in the show so I aint gonna waste my time reading any thing else, even if it was written better. The actual show ruined them for me. I also dont think GA and DD suit eachother. I didnt read any fan fiction until I read Sarah Knights work and Dana D's - so i read some here and there. But not that many.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 04:10

Dana Doggett wrote:

This totally reminds me that I actually had a Doggett/Scully dream last night that helped me figure out a scene for my novel! And lucky me, I was in the role of Scully and walked side-by-side next to Doggett during a case cheer It was one of those dreams that felt so real, like I can still hear his voice in my head wub I hope I can revisit this dream, it was really helping me figure out a scene for my story LOL

G'night!

Yay you had a Doggett dream! I love those dreams!! I have so many Doggett and DSR dreams and I tend to be Scully of course. I always remember finer details like the touch of him or the sound of his voice. Anyways....
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cindersmommy on Fri 19 Aug 2011, 05:31

Doggett dreams are good. biggrin I don't read MSR fics as a rule Claudine, they ick me out and I find them really cheesy. blink Mulder and Scully don't work as a couple for me either, but I like to keep an open mind. banana I'd rather read a good DSR or something like that. glasses I find I love the UST much better, at least that stuff doesn't make me want to puke. barf
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