MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

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MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Aciano on Sun 24 Jul 2011, 20:38

Okay let me first say that I am NOT trying to troll you or disrupt the peace here. When I was younger, my parents would say I would make a great lawyer because I love to talk with people who have conflicting opinions from my own and simply discuss. I don't want this thread to turn into mindless bashing and name calling, and if that starts (from either side), mods, feel free to close this and do whatever else you think should be done.

I know I'm new, but I lurked for a while before joining and I've noticed that many DSR fans here feel that, in general, MSR fans are not fair to them and that they are picked on by MSR fans. And I guess that is the main reason I started this thread. I simply want to debate MSR and DSR (or any other pairings you'd like to discuss, though these seems to be the main ones) with you. That's all. Obviously we're not going to agree on everything here so this might not last long but I wanted to try it. I've had threads like this work on other sites with other topics, and this one will work too if we all just be respectful and act like adults here. Okay? biggrin

Okay. So we're all clear on that. You should all know that, though I accidently saw my first X-Files episode when I was 2 years old, it scared me to death and I only really starting watching the show this past January. I was never a part of those X-Files forums in the 90's that I hear about. So I have some questions for you to start off with.

1. What made you choose DSR instead of MSR? It seems to me that MSR is the obvious choice. Did you start off as a MSR shipper and switch? Or did you discover the X-Files during season 8 or 9? Or maybe you watched the entire way through and just didn't want to see them have a romantic relationship. But I think I would find it very hard to keep watching the show and being a NoRomo during seasons 6 and 7.

2. Do you think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship? Or was it more of something that you wanted to happen/thought would happen in the future? And if you do think they were together, when?

3. Do you think that, if Mulder hadn't left in the beginning of season 9 and the three of them were in that basement office, Scully would choose Doggett over Mulder? Or would Doggett even fight for Scully, knowing that Mulder and Scully have a child together?

Okay that might be an overwhelming amount of questions so I'm going to stop. You don't have to spend hours answering all of those if you don't want to, and I hope that we can all keep our cool and have an actual conversation. peace
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 10:00

Aciano wrote:Okay let me first say that I am NOT trying to troll you or disrupt the peace here. When I was younger, my parents would say I would make a great lawyer because I love to talk with people who have conflicting opinions from my own and simply discuss. I don't want this thread to turn into mindless bashing and name calling, and if that starts (from either side), mods, feel free to close this and do whatever else you think should be done.

Well, this forum is about Serenity within the X Files fandom. There really is more to TXF than just Mulder and Scully and so we allow people to voice themselves on other things from the show without any rudeness in return.

To be able to:

- talk about ALL things of the show, including Mulder and Scully, their relationship (positive or negative), episodes, ideas, creative work, fantasies, reviews

- to respect one another, not lose temper or insult anyone

- talk about the things you like about the show that perhaps the mainstream don’t like

- and or talk about the things other forums / sites don’t talk about, but you want to talk about it

-and or not to be harassed or name called or told to leave a forum or put to the 'back of the bus' or edited or censored because of your different opinions.

This is what we stand for 1st and foremost.

I hope there is no misunderstanding about what this forum is about, because, all of those negative reactions you spoke of above, are never tolerated nor welcomed nor encouraged anywhere online, especially if its down to what Ship people like.

We want people to be able to feel comfortable to express the things they like about the show. Whether it be MSR, DSR or even Mulder and Doggett or Krycek and Skinner or if you hate any relationship ideas and just love the idea of aliens visiting Earth...whatever. We feel everyone has the right to an opinion, a different opinion. It is unfair and unjust to have hatred set on anyone just because of what they like.

I know I'm new, but I lurked for a while before joining and I've noticed that many DSR fans here feel that, in general, MSR fans are not fair to them and that they are picked on by MSR fans. And I guess that is the main reason I started this thread. I simply want to debate MSR and DSR (or any other pairings you'd like to discuss, though these seems to be the main ones) with you. That's all. Obviously we're not going to agree on everything here so this might not last long but I wanted to try it. I've had threads like this work on other sites with other topics, and this one will work too if we all just be respectful and act like adults here. Okay? biggrin

Debate away! We are all here to discuss nicely.

I think I speak for the members of this forum when I say that our main thing most of the time here is that we enjoy the show for what the show was about (paranormal, UFO -related, Scary, conspiracies, atmosphere, dark ideas etc) and as much as we have fun and think about romances within the show for the characters, we don’t really believe the show was about romance nor would it have been preferable for the show to focus on that. We might like to talk about fantasies or ideas of romance on the show, and might even love some of the sweet scenes between a couple on the show, but we are very aware the show was not about romance.

The only reason anyone here, or not here, has upset over MSR fans, is because of the experience we have had JUST because we either don’t like MSR, have no interest in it or prefer one of those characters with someone else.

We don't automatically hate MSR fans. We have a load here on this forum. Its the mostly MSR fandom that would attack us or ban us from discussions or send hateful mail or make horrible comments on non MSR issues that are why we are upset by the MSR fandom. I have experienced this 1st hand and this is the only reason for the very honest reaction I have to it all. And its not once or twice, its a reoccurring thing. And I have been a fan for 17 years and been a Doggett fan for 10 years and have experienced some really awful things just because I like Doggett and DSR.

I have friends who love MSR, and they are respectful, mature and open-minded enough to not let something so petty to affect being friends. So I do not think that all MSR fans are bad people or automatically think I cant talk to them in a forum. In fact I would encourage a good chat on the whole thing.

Please don’t feel that because you are into MSR then you will automatically be bashed and assumed you are causing trouble here just because you like that aspect of the show, cause that’s exactly what this forum is NOT about.

If you see by the members here, we have plenty who are happily here a lot and are MSR fans. We also don’t tolerate any bashing of MSR within the threads about them. We have Noromo threads for anyone who wants to express how they dislike it or want to talk about why they think romance should not be focused on, and Noromo is no romance for ANY pairing. Its for anyone who doesn’t want romance to be any sort of touched on story for the show at all, whether it be Mulder with Scully, Scully with Doggett or Queequeg with Karin Berquist !!

We are all very clear and open about WHY we support the ships we like. I would suggest that perhaps you visit some of the threads here where we have talked about what made us DSR fans become fans of it and visit the thread where we explain why we might be a noromo or why MSR doesn’t appeal to us. They are all titled clearly where we would have discussed this.

Its there for people to be free to express how they feel but without it being about having a go at the people who do like it.

There are members here who believe that TXF is about paranormal cases for the FBI. And believe me, I have been an obsessed fan of the show when the show was very new and if someone mentioned TXF to me, they would ask me if I believed in UFOs or aliens. They would not ask me if I wanted Mulder and Scully to get together. So I think that that has to be considered when noromos are thought of.

Please understand, any bad feelings we have towards the MSR fandom or the fandom otherwise is due to how people have treated US when we have done nothing to provoke it.

I only really starting watching the show this past January. I was never a part of those X-Files forums in the 90's that I hear about.

I didn’t have internet access at all in the 90s, so was never part of any X Files forums back then either.

Can I ask, why did you decide to watch the show again this year?
Was it just timing or just accidental?
Have you seen the whole 9 seasons?
If you started watching in January, 202 episodes, did you watch two or three every day? Marathon!! biggrin


1. What made you choose DSR instead of MSR?


You can visit the DSR thread or Noromo thread for perhaps more answers on this, as i know we have discussed this a lot there, such as Why DSR, When Did you become a fan of DSR, What kind of DSR fan are you, Why doesn’t MSR appeal to you, etc...

To answer as briefly as I can biggrin I did not feel Mulder and Scully had chemistry in season 5...I started watching the show in season 1, from the episode Space...I loved the show for the curious storylines, the atmosphere, the scariness, the conspiracies. As a child I would look up at the sky and wonder about things. I love space, astrology, myths, conspiracy theories (that’s not to say I think every thing is a conspiracy, just enjoy that in entertainment!) and so Mulder and Scully was never why i watched it. I liked them as characters of course, how could anyone not? I liked it when they would have a flirty moment or comment, because they are a man and a woman together and its natural for someone to say something and the IDEA of them would excite me back then.

As the years passed, I was still more and more obsessed but less interested in them becoming anything more than friends/partners. It just wasn’t what I thought the show was about and I thought it was more original if for once, a TV show didn’t make the leads get into bed with each other.

I loved the tension when Mulder and Scully weren’t getting on in Never Again. I thought it was realistic. I wanted their relationship to develop and perhaps not in a positive way, because sometimes in life, relationships are never plain sailing.

Around season 5, I didn’t think they suited each other for a realistic romantic couple. Then in season 7 I definitely had zero interest in it, because when they kissed in Millennium, well it was strange, out of the blue, non-sexy, non romantic and they didn’t talk about it before or after...it was just "placed" there and I hoped the show would get back to its original reason for being.

It seems to me that MSR is the obvious choice. Did you start off as a MSR shipper and switch?

I can obviously see why you would think its an obvious choice, merely by the fact they were together as partners for the longest but in my opinion, the choice is not obvious just cause of that. And the more I see them together, the more I think they aren’t suited to be in a relationship together other than friends / partners.

Its obvious to like pizza but not everyone does

I also dont see any clear indication that they were are proper couple. No one said ANYTHING to eachother. They never married, they never said " I love you" properly to one another. Other than a kiss here and there, we never got any real scene of them talking about their relationship like most couples would end up doing.

To answer you, yes I basically switched but I'm not sure I considered myself a real Shipper, if only cause I didnt really think about it much, nor was I aware of the names for it all (like Noromo, Shipper, or USTer etc). I'm not sure what I would have called myself. I was a bit of a Shipper but I think I was more of a USTer or Finishipper (if done correctly) and then became a Noromo and then a Dippper biggrin


Or did you discover the X-Files during season 8 or 9?

I don’t know any fan of the show that started watching in season 8 or 9. I really don’t. I started watching the show in season 1 when it 1st started on TV in the UK.

Is this asked because surely anyone who doesn’t like MSR are the ones who didn’t experience them? If anything its the opposite for fans. They experienced MSR, all of it and came to the decision they didn’t support it or enjoy it or want it to be an issue because they saw the show when it wasn’t an issue.


Or maybe you watched the entire way through and just didn't want to see them have a romantic relationship. But I think I would find it very hard to keep watching the show and being a Noromo during seasons 6 and 7.

I don’t want to repeat myself, but I think if you watched the show for the paranormal cases and didnt want the show to appear like a soup opera or a romance novel you find in a gas station, then yes, you wouldnt want to see the leads together romantically.

It was only hard for me watching season 7 because I think the quality of the writing and the producing was terrible. I also think that it was clear DD wasn’t interested in the show at all and that sucked to watch that. To then see them try to relight the show by starting up Mulder and Scully as a couple was simply a sell-out and disappointing. I think if the show stayed on track and gave the characters some character development then season 7 would have been better. So it wasn’t hard watching those seasons for me because I was a Noromo, I wasnt even sure what I was even then, it was only not enjoyable because of the stories and the writing.

Season 8 is my fave season and look at how much MSR stuff is in that. I mean, really theres probably more MSR stuff in season 8 than any other season.


2. Do you think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship? Or was it more of something that you wanted to happen/thought would happen in the future? And if you do think they were together, when?

I find this a strange question. I think one would have to be somewhat deluded to actually think that Doggett and Scully did something together on the show, but we just didn’t see it. (But, hey if they did do anything together (even though I don’t think they did) most likely would have done it when Mulder was dead for 3 months...Doggett's gentle touch on a crying, grieving Scully...she needs some male attention.... banana )

I basically think that Doggett was a lovely, sexy, mature and respectful man, whom eventually got on really well with Scully and treated her better than Mulder did when they worked together. But then heck, I think Pendrell treated Scully better than Mulder did too and I would have loved to have seen him with her.

When season 8 was on the 1st half of the season, I loved Doggett and Scully as partners, (no romance intended) much more than Mulder and Scully. Its just what I preferred. I saw Mulder and Scully together for so many years, that it got boring, cause they didn’t progress. I also thought Mulder wasn't always nice to Scully to enjoy them together on cases. I thought Mulder was obsessed with his work too much to think about what was best for Scully and that was not nice to see unfold.

I thought Doggett and Scully had a lot of sexual tension too. If not more so than Mulder and Scully and probably more so because it was slightly sinful or wrong or unexpected for Scully to be with another man, when she was quite dedicated to Mulder for so long. And it was somewhat wrong for Doggett to look at Scully in a certain way, cause she was pregnant at the time and he probably had gathered somehow that she probably was "connected" to Mulder in some way. I think its always entertaining to see a man fall in love when he really shouldn’t. Same for a woman too but for some reason, to me, its more sweet when a man does it!

I thought Doggett became madly in love with Scully by accident. I think she had "some" feelings towards him, some sort of caring, liking of some sort. I can say I don’t think she fell in love with him. To be honest, if I think more on this, I think she would have had more feelings for him if she didn’t feel like she had to be loyal to Mulder. She wouldnt let herself think more on it.


Even if Scully had zero interest in Doggett, I would still support and follow DSR, cause its sexy, interesting, intense, 3 is a crowd kinda thing...like the song "Uninvited" by Alanis Morrissette, and the DSR vid for it, its all about how Doggett finds Scully intriguing cause she unattainable, she knows it too.


So I think that if Mulder had died and not come back from the dead, and was around Doggett long enough, then she would have ended up with him, if she had any sense!! He was the most realistic man she would have ended up with in my opinion. And he was the best man for her once Mulder was out of the picture, because I feel like her loyalty to Mulder was more of a burden. Scully always struck me as a woman who wanted a lot of attention from a man and I think Doggett was quite happy to give her that attention.

Even without any thoughts on Mulder, I think Doggett & Scully suited each other sexually, romantically and in every other way. I have been married for 7 years now, and the way Doggett and Scully were together, was a nice and caring relationship. And then I do think of Mulder when I think this and from the scenes between Mulder and Scully, that’s not a healthy relationship in my view, even if not compared to Doggett and Scully.

Saying this, I can see why people still like Mulder and Scully together. They had a time, they had a lot of chemistry once. Its just "after" the chemistry that sticks in my mind. Also, I didnt like how their relationship was focussed on or how it progressed. If it was done in a realistic way, a gentle side way, then I might not have had a problem with it. I feel it was all written wrong and too vaguely.

There was also clear intention from the writers and producers (etc) to make "something" with Doggett and Scully. They put in certain sexually charged scenes together, some things were suggested, the script notes were quite clear on Doggett's love for Scully, the actor Robert Patrick admitted to deciding secretly himself to "act" Doggett to be in love with Scully, then the writers followed suit and it became a real possibility.

To me, aesthetically Doggett and Scully suit each other endlessly. And I feel their personalities complimented each other and from my experiences in relationships with men, I don’t really believe that "opposites attract" deep down. Sure, you can have different opinions, you can clash, you can mesh, but most of the time, I think for a relationship to really truly work, the foundations of morals, beliefs and respect should be the same. If that’s not there, then I don’t think it would work. For me, that’s what I think of when it comes to Mulder and Scully. I see too much of a clash of personalities. If I think of Doggett and Scully in a realistic way, I feel their personalities, their strengths, their morals are very in tune, similar and in sync and their small differences simply compliment each other and serve to help one another grow.

3. Do you think that, if Mulder hadn't left in the beginning of season 9 and the three of them were in that basement office, Scully would choose Doggett over Mulder? Or would Doggett even fight for Scully, knowing that Mulder and Scully have a child together?

It sounds silly to even talk about some things like this cause it just didn’t happen.

BUT, I think Doggett had fallen in love with Scully, and that was out of his control. I think he knew she was "attached" to Mulder in some way and therefore didn’t make any move towards her. So if they had been all working together, i think (that would have been awesome!! biggrin ) and I think Doggett would have just stood by Scully, cared for her when Mulder didn’t and stayed quiet. This is actually something i sometimes create in my videos, because I like the idea of them all working together, sounds fun, sounds like a lot of tension would be there...and in my videos I make out that Scully might be upset by how Mulder treats her on a case and then there’s Doggett, who is all sweet and gentle with her...and Doggett wishes he could be her man, but he cant. Its fun.

Like I said, I can see Scully with many other men! I watch her in Christmas Carol and Emily and when she is with Detective Kresge, who is a sweet and handsome man, and they have a lot of chemistry. He jokes with her, loosens his tie in front of her, feels comfortable to have loose body language with her and she goes to him in a low cut top. He calls her "Scully FBI" every time he sees her and stands up to her when she comes to him when he is in Bill Scully's home, like a gentleman. So, as much as I think the show is about paranormal cases and should stay that way, I still raise an eyebrow at certain men and women together and think more on it then the show would...but that’s it. I enjoy the X Files for what it is. I have made several videos of what it is I love about the show and they have nothing to do with relationships.

Wow, I am such a babbler! We all want to discuss things here happily, that’s what we do here!!!! No matter what the subject matter is! There should be no reason why anyone should get offended, cause its just a TV show, and these are just fictional characters. glasses

This is my personal opinion on DSR v MSR but I really hope I have made it clear how we are on this forum as a whole and that it should not be assumed that we will attack MSR fans just because one might be into DSR or SRR or whatever.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 12:29

1. What made you choose DSR instead of MSR? It seems to me that MSR is the obvious choice. Did you start off as a MSR shipper and switch? Or did you discover the X-Files during season 8 or 9? Or maybe you watched the entire way through and just didn't want to see them have a romantic relationship. But I think I would find it very hard to keep watching the show and being a NoRomo during seasons 6 and 7.

I chose DSR over MSR because by the time that Doggett came onto the show I was already not a MSR 'shipper anymore. I had jumped onto the Skinner/Scully 'ship and enjoyed that because I liked the idea of Scully being with a man who is more mature and respectful of her than Mulder seems to be.

When I first started watching TXF in 1998 (season 6 was the first 'real time' season I watched as it aired on FOX) I was told that everyone who watched TXF was a Mulder/Scully 'shipper, and since I enjoyed the UST between them I also said that I was a MSR 'shipper. However as time went on and I began to form my own opinions of the series and its characters, I began to change my mind. I enjoyed TXF not because of UST between Mulder and Scully, I enjoyed it because it delved into investigations into the paranormal and unknown, explored government conspiracies and an alien invasion threat, and I felt that if the series turned Mulder and Scully into a couple that their relationship would shift the focus of the show from super creepy to super sappy, and since I don't like super sappy or romance in fiction in general, I did not want to see that happen on my favorite show.

I started 'shipping Skinner/Scully for fun during season 6 (when I supposedly was supposed to be a 'hardcore' MSR 'shipper) but I wound up really getting behind the pair as I continued to catch up on episodes from the first five seasons and as the series went from season 6 into season 7. I completely left my MSRdom when Mulder and Scully kissed at the end of "Millennium", up until then I was still enjoying the UST between them and didn't honestly think that Carter would make the mistake of hooking them up. When I saw the kiss I saw (in my eyes) that when relationship content is forced on Mulder and Scully it doesn't work. To me, that kiss was as stale as cardboard and offered none of the UST that shone so brilliantly between the two of them in the earlier seasons. I stopped 'shipping MSR immediately and have never gone back. That's not to say that I don't still enjoy the UST of the episodes that lead up to "Millennium", I do, but I stopped wanting them to hook up as I saw that in "Millennium" it took away from what - I thought - the focus of the story should have been (as a fan also of MLM the series).

Yes, it was difficult to watch season 7 as a MSR Noromo with all the talk that the 'shippers generated about how they thought Mulder and Scully had begun a romantic relationship. The forced flirty scenes with Mulder and Scully, them hanging out together without working all felt wrong to me, and I didn't like it. Season 7 bored me, and once Scully told Skinner that she was pregnant at the end of "Requiem" I said that I would not be coming back to watch season 8, and that my time as a XF fan was over. I didn't watch any reruns in the hiatus between season 7 and season 8 (except for "En Ami"), I wasn't even able to sit down and watch earlier seasons of the show because my enjoyment of TXF had disappeared because of what apparently happened between Mulder and Scully. Then... in July 2000... it was announced that Robert Patrick would be joining the show and my status as a XF fan would change forever...

I tuned in to see season 8 simply because I loved Robert Patrick in "T2". I thought he would bring an air of excitement and unpredictability back to the series that I used to love so much. Once season 8 began I was had, I loved the character and decided (sometimes I think beyond my better judgment) to continue watching the show and find a way to tolerate Scully being pregnant (I hate pregnancies on TV shows) and going to have a baby (in life I don't like babies and I hate them more on TV shows). I wasn't a Doggett/Scully fan straight away, it took me until "Roadrunners" to hop on board that 'ship, but the thought did first occur to me at the end of "Without" when he comforted her in his arms, holding her tightly, and then when he gave her a Get Well Soon card. I thought "wow, this man is awesome, he'd be a great friend to her".

2. Do you think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship? Or was it more of something that you wanted to happen/thought would happen in the future? And if you do think they were together, when?

No, I do not think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship. I do think that the writers developed their friendship off-screen that lead to Doggett and Scully beginning to care for each other, calling each other by their first names in season 9, leaning on each other in difficult times, etc. I wish that we had seen the development of their friendship and why they seem so drawn to each other, but TPTB chose not to show us those moments so we are left to our own imaginations to figure that out (which is sometimes more fun than having actually seen what exactly happened between them to get them from 'partners at odds' to 'friends who call on each other day or night when in need of comfort').

I think that if the series had gone on longer, and Mulder hadn't returned (either from the dead, or from being in hiding) that eventually something would have happened between Doggett and Scully. Why else would the writers (TPTB) purposely develop Doggett's character to have feelings for Scully, to fall in love with her? Why would they write Scully to drop everything to be at his side even when it's not work related (Audrey Pauley)? TPTB were setting up a potential romantic relationship between John and Dana, and I interpret that as their way of saying that if things had been different, if Mulder hadn't come back from the dead, or if he had been in hiding for years, that eventually the friendship that developed between John and Dana would have turned into something more. John and Dana are very similar characters, and as the idea of "opposites attract" (Mulder/Scully) seems more exciting and appealing, it is more likely for a relationship to succeed and last forever with two people who share more in common and have similar goals and dreams in life (Doggett/Scully).

3. Do you think that, if Mulder hadn't left in the beginning of season 9 and the three of them were in that basement office, Scully would choose Doggett over Mulder? Or would Doggett even fight for Scully, knowing that Mulder and Scully have a child together?

I don't think that Scully would chose Doggett over Mulder if all three of them were working together in the same office. She's loyal, too loyal to Mulder and I don't feel she wants to let him down. I think what could have happened in that scenario would be that Mulder (the psychologist) would eventually just move on and away from his emotional attachment to Scully, the XF are his life, everything else will never come as a top priority, not even Scully, and I think he would be the one to end their relationship. Even in "Requiem" he told Scully that there's so much more she needs to do with her life, he was showing signs then that he wants so much more for her than what he has to offer. Mulder's no dummy, he'd know that Doggett is in love with her and I don't think he (Mulder) would want to stand in the way of Scully finding true happiness and if it would be with Doggett, I don't think Mulder would object - since if they had been working together he would know that Doggett is a great man, and a good fit for Scully.

I don't think that Doggett would fight for Scully, he respects her, Mulder, and their relationship too much. He's honorable. However, I think that if he saw the relationship between Mulder and Scully being unhealthy or unfair to Scully that in the right circumstance he may sit down with her (or with Mulder) one-on-one and express his feelings about not wanting to see Scully so unhappy. I don't think that he'd tell Scully that he's in love with her, but his eyes express a lot, and I'm sure Scully (even on the series) knows how he feels for her. If this were to happen, I think that it could be a catalyst to make Scully sit back and take things in and make the decision that is best for her, not best for Mulder's needs.

I don't think the fact Mulder and Scully have a child together would come into play because Doggett knows that Mulder will always be in that child's life (I'm taking this part of the question as if Scully didn't give William up for adoption). If Mulder and Scully broke up, went on to live different personal lives, and still had their child, they would split custody so that both of them were equally in the child's life (well, until some alien something-or-other popped up and Mulder had to go run off to investigate that - I think aliens and the like would take highest priority in Mulder's life - even over that of being with his own child).
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 12:52

Dana Doggett wrote:I had jumped onto the Skinner/Scully 'ship and enjoyed that because I liked the idea of Scully being with a man who is more mature and respectful of her than Mulder seems to be.

LOL I remember shipping Skinner and Scully for fun when I was in school. Sometimes he would just look at her in a certain way. LOL

didn't honestly think that Carter would make the mistake of hooking them up

I never thought he would do it either. For all the years he said he never would.

I do, but I stopped wanting them to hook up as I saw that in "Millennium" it took away from what - I thought - the focus of the story should have been (as a fan also of MLM the series).


I never thought of that like this but yes, its true. The Millennium fans must have wanted a good conclusion and for that to be thrown in was wrong.

it was announced that Robert Patrick would be joining the show and my status as a XF fan would change forever...

Its the same for me. TXF was lucky I was still sitting there watching the awful season 7, but I was still there. If it had carried on in that tone in season 8 then I would not have sat there. I felt in Requiem the mood had shifted though. So I knew something different in season 8 was coming. When they announced Scully would be partnered with some other man and Mulder was missing, I was so excited something new was happening! I thought, during season 7 Mulder was boring and hand in hand DD was bored.

And when season 8 came, I was not just any ordinary big X Files fan, ( I was very obsessed for many years, gradually and naturally that faded somewhat during season 6 and 7, after being such a fan for so many years) I was a refreshed obsessive X Files fan and I put that all down to Doggett and Robert Patrick. cheer

(in life I don't like babies and I hate them more on TV shows)

crackup LOL you better stay clear of my kids then if you ever visit me!! biggrin


I wish that we had seen the development of their friendship and why they seem so drawn to each other, but TPTB chose not to show us those moments so we are left to our own imaginations to figure that out (which is sometimes more fun than having actually seen what exactly happened between them to get them from 'partners at odds' to 'friends who call on each other day or night when in need of comfort').

Totally agree!! Those 3 months really made us have to think! LOL.

John and Dana are very similar characters, and as the idea of "opposites attract" (Mulder/Scully) seems more exciting and appealing, it is more likely for a relationship to succeed and last forever with two people who share more in common and have similar goals and dreams in life (Doggett/Scully).

Yep, so glad others think this.

...She's loyal, too loyal to Mulder and I don't feel she wants to let him down. I think what could have happened in that scenario would be that Mulder (the psychologist) would eventually just move on and away from his emotional attachment to Scully, the XF are his life, everything else will never come as a top priority, not even Scully, and I think he would be the one to end their relationship. Mulder's no dummy, he'd know that Doggett is in love with her

LOL, I find this so exciting that Mulder knew Doggett was in love with his Scully!


I don't think that Doggett would fight for Scully, he respects her, Mulder, and their relationship too much. He's honorable. However, I think that if he saw the relationship between Mulder and Scully being unhealthy or unfair to Scully that in the right circumstance he may sit down with her (or with Mulder) one-on-one and express his feelings about not wanting to see Scully so unhappy. I don't think that he'd tell Scully that he's in love with her, but his eyes express a lot, and I'm sure Scully (even on the series) knows how he feels for her. If this were to happen, I think that it could be a catalyst to make Scully sit back and take things in and make the decision that is best for her, not best for Mulder's needs.

You just gave me goosebumps at the ideas here!

Yes, I totally agree. this is the way I see it happening too.

OMG "his eyes express a lot" doggett hug

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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 13:20

gorgclaud wrote:
(in life I don't like babies and I hate them more on TV shows)

crackup LOL you better stay clear of my kids then if you ever visit me!! biggrin

LOL Your kids are kids now, not babies that are completely helpless. Once kids can walk, talk, run, have a conversation, etc. that's when they're all right in my book (although I don't think I could ever have any of my own, I like other ppl's kids - babies, not so much - but I like peace and quiet at the end of the day and need that). Some of the most fun I've had teaching ice skating is when I've had toddlers, the youngest was 2 years old and her sister was 4 and they were so much fun. The other was 4 when she started and we were with her for a couple of years before she moved on to another sport. Teenagers are fun, but you can't roll around on the ice and pretend dinosaurs are going to eat you up LOL the teenagers just look at you like you're un-cool.


John and Dana are very similar characters, and as the idea of "opposites attract" (Mulder/Scully) seems more exciting and appealing, it is more likely for a relationship to succeed and last forever with two people who share more in common and have similar goals and dreams in life (Doggett/Scully).

Yep, so glad others think this.

Yeah, I posted my response first and then went back up to read what you had to say and just laughed at how we so often think the same thing. For me though, the idea of "opposites" attract is a very elementary/childish idea of what a real relationship/romance should be, but that could just be me. There's no reason not to 'ship anyone of the "opposites attract" genre in fiction, but realistically it just doesn't work all that well more times than not.

I don't think that Doggett would fight for Scully, he respects her, Mulder, and their relationship too much. He's honorable. However, I think that if he saw the relationship between Mulder and Scully being unhealthy or unfair to Scully that in the right circumstance he may sit down with her (or with Mulder) one-on-one and express his feelings about not wanting to see Scully so unhappy. I don't think that he'd tell Scully that he's in love with her, but his eyes express a lot, and I'm sure Scully (even on the series) knows how he feels for her. If this were to happen, I think that it could be a catalyst to make Scully sit back and take things in and make the decision that is best for her, not best for Mulder's needs.

You just gave me goosebumps at the ideas here!

Yes, I totally agree. this is the way I see it happening too.

OMG "his eyes express a lot" doggett hug

So far my plan for my XF novel is to have Doggett/Scully/Mulder working together in the era of season 9... I've been giving this scenario some thought lately smile
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 14:52

Dana Doggett wrote:
gorgclaud wrote:
(in life I don't like babies and I hate them more on TV shows)

crackup LOL you better stay clear of my kids then if you ever visit me!! biggrin

LOL Your kids are kids now, not babies that are completely helpless. Once kids can walk, talk, run, have a conversation, etc. that's when they're all right in my book (although I don't think I could ever have any of my own, I like other ppl's kids - babies, not so much - but I like peace and quiet at the end of the day and need that). Some of the most fun I've had teaching ice skating is when I've had toddlers, the youngest was 2 years old and her sister was 4 and they were so much fun. The other was 4 when she started and we were with her for a couple of years before she moved on to another sport. Teenagers are fun, but you can't roll around on the ice and pretend dinosaurs are going to eat you up LOL the teenagers just look at you like you're un-cool.

LOL!! You are funny! I can totally see what you mean and I dont want to stray off topic too much but babies have limited appeal to me. I enjoy my kids the more older they get.

There's no reason not to 'ship anyone of the "opposites attract" genre in fiction, but realistically it just doesn't work all that well more times than not.

yep, totally agree.


So far my plan for my XF novel is to have Doggett/Scully/Mulder working together in the era of season 9... I've been giving this scenario some thought lately smile

OMG I cant wait!! banana ROCK ON AND PARTAAAAYY! cheer
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Aciano on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 17:49

Okay I'm back! I think this is the longest post I've ever written so I hope you guys like to read! And I typed all this up on Word so hopefully the formatting won't get all messed up. Here goes nothing...

gorgclaud wrote:
Well, this forum is about Serenity within the X Files fandom. There really is more to TXF than just Mulder and Scully and so we allow people to voice themselves on other things from the show without any rudeness in return.

To be able to:

- talk about ALL things of the show, including Mulder and Scully, their relationship (positive or negative), episodes, ideas, creative work, fantasies, reviews

- to respect one another, not lose temper or insult anyone

- talk about the things you like about the show that perhaps the mainstream don’t like

- and or talk about the things other forums / sites don’t talk about, but you want to talk about it

-and or not to be harassed or name called or told to leave a forum or put to the 'back of the bus' or edited or censored because of your different opinions.

This is what we stand for 1st and foremost.
I didn’t want to quote everything you said because this post is already going to be crazy long but I’m glad that we all seem to be on the same page here. I love the paranormal side of X-Files just as much as you and I agree that it’s ridiculous that DSR fans would be bashed or treated unfairly just because they like Doggett/DSR.

I didn’t have internet access at all in the 90s, so was never part of any X Files forums back then either.

Can I ask, why did you decide to watch the show again this year?
Was it just timing or just accidental?
Have you seen the whole 9 seasons?
If you started watching in January, 202 episodes, did you watch two or three every day? Marathon!! biggrin
Actually, I wasn’t watching the show again. I’d never seen it before January. My parents watched X-Files in the 90’s and one night when I was 2, I snuck out of bed and accidently saw part of Tooms. It scared me to death, and I refused to watch anything remotely X-Files related until last winter. It was pretty random, but by this time I'd figured that I couldn't trust my 2 year old mind to judge what was too scary and what was not, and I'd been wondering for a while what the show was really about. I have seen all 9 seasons and both movies, so yeah it was pretty crazy. biggrin


Around season 5, I didn’t think they suited each other for a realistic romantic couple. Then in season 7 I definitely had zero interest in it, because when they kissed in Millennium, well it was strange, out of the blue, non-sexy, non romantic and they didn’t talk about it before or after...it was just "placed" there and I hoped the show would get back to its original reason for being.

I can obviously see why you would think its an obvious choice, merely by the fact they were together as partners for the longest but in my opinion, the choice is not obvious just cause of that. And the more I see them together, the more I think they aren’t suited to be in a relationship together other than friends / partners.

Its obvious to like pizza but not everyone does

I also dont see any clear indication that they were are proper couple. No one said ANYTHING to eachother. They never married, they never said "I love you" properly to one another. Other than a kiss here and there, we never got any real scene of them talking about their relationship like most couples would end up doing.
Maybe we never saw them being a “proper couple” but I don’t think it’s in their nature to sit down and talk about their feelings, make mushy speeches about how much they love each other etc. At least not while they’re still working on the X-Files together. If they were to quit the FBI and get more “normal” jobs I could see them getting married and raising William. But that wouldn’t be very entertaining for us viewers.

So as far as declarations of love go, I think “you’ve my one in five billion” or “you’ve my constant, my touchstone” is more of their style. I don’t think it’s because they love each other any less, it’s just their personalities. And besides, I think that even before they officially got together (which actually could be its own debate about when this happened) they both knew they loved each other. I mean, they’re both very smart people and it’s not exactly hard to see it.

I don’t want to repeat myself, but I think if you watched the show for the paranormal cases and didnt want the show to appear like a soup opera or a romance novel you find in a gas station, then yes, you wouldnt want to see the leads together romantically.

It was only hard for me watching season 7 because I think the quality of the writing and the producing was terrible. I also think that it was clear DD wasn’t interested in the show at all and that sucked to watch that. To then see them try to relight the show by starting up Mulder and Scully as a couple was simply a sell-out and disappointing. I think if the show stayed on track and gave the characters some character development then season 7 would have been better. So it wasn’t hard watching those seasons for me because I was a Noromo, I wasnt even sure what I was even then, it was only not enjoyable because of the stories and the writing.

Season 8 is my fave season and look at how much MSR stuff is in that. I mean, really theres probably more MSR stuff in season 8 than any other season.
I agree that getting Mulder and Scully together as a couple was an attempt to keep viewers interested but I think that if you had the right writers, you could have them together AND interesting stories. Then of course the show went downhill because DD didn’t want to do it anymore and it wasn’t the same without him. If you have a show with only two main characters that the audience knows and loves, you can’t just take one of them away and simply replace him. They could have replaced Mulder with just about anybody, and it wouldn’t have worked.


I find this a strange question. I think one would have to be somewhat deluded to actually think that Doggett and Scully did something together on the show, but we just didn’t see it. (But, hey if they did do anything together (even though I don’t think they did) most likely would have done it when Mulder was dead for 3 months...Doggett's gentle touch on a crying, grieving Scully...she needs some male attention.... banana )

I basically think that Doggett was a lovely, sexy, mature and respectful man, whom eventually got on really well with Scully and treated her better than Mulder did when they worked together. But then heck, I think Pendrell treated Scully better than Mulder did too and I would have loved to have seen him with her.

When season 8 was on the 1st half of the season, I loved Doggett and Scully as partners, (no romance intended) much more than Mulder and Scully. Its just what I preferred. I saw Mulder and Scully together for so many years, that it got boring, cause they didn’t progress. I also thought Mulder wasn't always nice to Scully to enjoy them together on cases. I thought Mulder was obsessed with his work too much to think about what was best for Scully and that was not nice to see unfold.
In my opinion, if Doggett and Scully were to get together, Mulder would have to be 100% dead for a long time. Based on This is Not Happening and Deadalive, it’s quite clear that she is not even close to being ready for another relationship. Of course if Mulder really was dead, she would have to eventually move on, but in that case I think her main focus would be her son and not dating.

About Mulder not always being nice to Scully: yes, there are times when Mulder can be a jerk, but I don’t think he tries to hurt her, just as she doesn’t try to hurt him. As in any realistic romantic relationship, you’re not always going to get along. I think it would be much stranger to have them smiling and agreeing with each other all the time. That would creep me out a bit (...or a lot). Mulder is obsessed with his work; I think this is a fact. But it’s not like he just ignores her. There are plenty of cases where Scully is in some dangerous situation and Mulder does absolutely anything to get her out of it. Flying to Antarctica and freezing my ass off in a giant alien spaceship doesn’t sound my idea of fun tongue

I thought Doggett became madly in love with Scully by accident. I think she had "some" feelings towards him, some sort of caring, liking of some sort. I can say I don’t think she fell in love with him. To be honest, if I think more on this, I think she would have had more feelings for him if she didn’t feel like she had to be loyal to Mulder. She wouldnt let herself think more on it.

Even if Scully had zero interest in Doggett, I would still support and follow DSR, cause its sexy, interesting, intense, 3 is a crowd kinda thing...like the song "Uninvited" by Alanis Morrissette, and the DSR vid for it, its all about how Doggett finds Scully intriguing cause she unattainable, she knows it too.

So I think that if Mulder had died and not come back from the dead, and was around Doggett long enough, then she would have ended up with him, if she had any sense!! He was the most realistic man she would have ended up with in my opinion. And he was the best man for her once Mulder was out of the picture, because I feel like her loyalty to Mulder was more of a burden. Scully always struck me as a woman who wanted a lot of attention from a man and I think Doggett was quite happy to give her that attention.
I think it’s quite clear that Doggett has feelings for her, but I never got the feeling that Scully was looking for anything but friendship. I actually felt bad for Doggett at times. He’s so nice and caring towards her, but she doesn’t let him in. She runs off without him in Roadrunners, and didn’t even tell him that she was pregnant. In my opinion, you would tell someone that you really trusted that you were going to have a baby.

It’s funny that you say you thought Scully would want a lot of attention, because I was just about to say how independent she is. Oh well. I just always thought that Scully would go crazy if she had someone being so protective of her all the time. She doesn’t want to be treated any different than if Mulder/Doggett had a male partner and I think she would get very annoyed very quickly if one of them started hovering (kind of how Mulder kept asking her how she was when he first learned about her cancer. I think her line was “quit staring at me, Mulder, I’m fine!”).

Even without any thoughts on Mulder, I think Doggett & Scully suited each other sexually, romantically and in every other way. I have been married for 7 years now, and the way Doggett and Scully were together, was a nice and caring relationship. And then I do think of Mulder when I think this and from the scenes between Mulder and Scully, that’s not a healthy relationship in my view, even if not compared to Doggett and Scully.

Saying this, I can see why people still like Mulder and Scully together. They had a time, they had a lot of chemistry once. Its just "after" the chemistry that sticks in my mind. Also, I didnt like how their relationship was focussed on or how it progressed. If it was done in a realistic way, a gentle side way, then I might not have had a problem with it. I feel it was all written wrong and too vaguely.

There was also clear intention from the writers and producers (etc) to make "something" with Doggett and Scully. They put in certain sexually charged scenes together, some things were suggested, the script notes were quite clear on Doggett's love for Scully, the actor Robert Patrick admitted to deciding secretly himself to "act" Doggett to be in love with Scully, then the writers followed suit and it became a real possibility.

To me, aesthetically Doggett and Scully suit each other endlessly. And I feel their personalities complimented each other and from my experiences in relationships with men, I don’t really believe that "opposites attract" deep down. Sure, you can have different opinions, you can clash, you can mesh, but most of the time, I think for a relationship to really truly work, the foundations of morals, beliefs and respect should be the same. If that’s not there, then I don’t think it would work. For me, that’s what I think of when it comes to Mulder and Scully. I see too much of a clash of personalities. If I think of Doggett and Scully in a realistic way, I feel their personalities, their strengths, their morals are very in tune, similar and in sync and their small differences simply compliment each other and serve to help one another grow.
I disagree that M&S have an unhealthy relationship. In fact, I think it’s the complete opposite. I think that there has always been a gentler side to their relationship, and that they need each other, in a way that Scully never had with Doggett. Just look at her reaction to Diana Fowley. Scully saw Mulder holding hands with her, and immediately you could tell how upset she was. And after that, she’s practically glaring at Diana every time she sees her. If you compare that to the way she treats Monica Reyes, there’s a huge difference. Monica is attractive and is going to be replacing her as Doggett’s new partner, and she doesn’t have a single problem with it. I think if Diana or Pheobe was assigned to replace her as Mulder’s partner, she would be very unhappy about it.

Obviously Mulder and Scully are nearly complete opposites, but I don’t see the “clash of personalities” that you spoke about. I think if two people are too different, that relationship wouldn’t work but M&S are not at that point because they have had a working relationship for years. This goes both ways, but it never made a difference to me because Scully never looked to me like she was interested in a relationship with Doggett.

BUT, I think Doggett had fallen in love with Scully, and that was out of his control. I think he knew she was "attached" to Mulder in some way and therefore didn’t make any move towards her. So if they had been all working together, i think (that would have been awesome!! biggrin ) and I think Doggett would have just stood by Scully, cared for her when Mulder didn’t and stayed quiet. This is actually something i sometimes create in my videos, because I like the idea of them all working together, sounds fun, sounds like a lot of tension would be there...and in my videos I make out that Scully might be upset by how Mulder treats her on a case and then there’s Doggett, who is all sweet and gentle with her...and Doggett wishes he could be her man, but he cant. Its fun.
The three of them certainly would have been interesting, that’s for sure! I would have really liked to see that tension too, though I don’t think I need to say that my situation would end differently than yours. tongue

Wow, I am such a babbler! We all want to discuss things here happily, that’s what we do here!!!! No matter what the subject matter is! There should be no reason why anyone should get offended, cause its just a TV show, and these are just fictional characters. glasses
ITA. It’s not like we’re talking about family members here. Unfortunately, these people don’t actually exist. tongue
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Aciano on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 17:51

Dana Doggett wrote: I chose DSR over MSR because by the time that Doggett came onto the show I was already not a MSR 'shipper anymore. I had jumped onto the Skinner/Scully 'ship and enjoyed that because I liked the idea of Scully being with a man who is more mature and respectful of her than Mulder seems to be.

When I first started watching TXF in 1998 (season 6 was the first 'real time' season I watched as it aired on FOX) I was told that everyone who watched TXF was a Mulder/Scully 'shipper, and since I enjoyed the UST between them I also said that I was a MSR 'shipper. However as time went on and I began to form my own opinions of the series and its characters, I began to change my mind. I enjoyed TXF not because of UST between Mulder and Scully, I enjoyed it because it delved into investigations into the paranormal and unknown, explored government conspiracies and an alien invasion threat, and I felt that if the series turned Mulder and Scully into a couple that their relationship would shift the focus of the show from super creepy to super sappy, and since I don't like super sappy or romance in fiction in general, I did not want to see that happen on my favorite show.
Completely agree with this. The only way I wanted a M/S relationship was if the creepiness continued. Sappiness in general just annoys me, there’s only so much of it a show like X-Files can handle.

To me, that kiss was as stale as cardboard and offered none of the UST that shone so brilliantly between the two of them in the earlier seasons. I stopped 'shipping MSR immediately and have never gone back. That's not to say that I don't still enjoy the UST of the episodes that lead up to "Millennium", I do, but I stopped wanting them to hook up as I saw that in "Millennium" it took away from what - I thought - the focus of the story should have been (as a fan also of MLM the series).
I thought that kiss and the smiles afterward were completely adorable, but I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree here. smile

the thought did first occur to me at the end of "Without" when he comforted her in his arms, holding her tightly, and then when he gave her a Get Well Soon card. I thought "wow, this man is awesome, he'd be a great friend to her".
Gotta admit that was sweet. I think they could be good friends.

(I hate pregnancies on TV shows) and going to have a baby (in life I don't like babies and I hate them more on TV shows).
crackup

No, I do not think that Doggett and Scully really did have an off-screen romantic relationship. I do think that the writers developed their friendship off-screen that lead to Doggett and Scully beginning to care for each other, calling each other by their first names in season 9, leaning on each other in difficult times, etc. I wish that we had seen the development of their friendship and why they seem so drawn to each other, but TPTB chose not to show us those moments so we are left to our own imaginations to figure that out (which is sometimes more fun than having actually seen what exactly happened between them to get them from 'partners at odds' to 'friends who call on each other day or night when in need of comfort').

I think that if the series had gone on longer, and Mulder hadn't returned (either from the dead, or from being in hiding) that eventually something would have happened between Doggett and Scully. Why else would the writers (TPTB) purposely develop Doggett's character to have feelings for Scully, to fall in love with her? Why would they write Scully to drop everything to be at his side even when it's not work related (Audrey Pauley)? TPTB were setting up a potential romantic relationship between John and Dana, and I interpret that as their way of saying that if things had been different, if Mulder hadn't come back from the dead, or if he had been in hiding for years, that eventually the friendship that developed between John and Dana would have turned into something more. John and Dana are very similar characters, and as the idea of "opposites attract" (Mulder/Scully) seems more exciting and appealing, it is more likely for a relationship to succeed and last forever with two people who share more in common and have similar goals and dreams in life (Doggett/Scully).
I’m willing to accept that they could have had a relationship if Mulder was really dead and there was absolutely no chance of him coming back. But this would have taken a lot of time. I don’t see Scully as the type of woman to just move right on to another man after Mulder’s death. She was very much in love with him, and had his child. So if he really was dead, I think her focus would be more on William than dating.

Chris Carter does like to leave a lot to the imagination, doesn't he? And I know that, usually, calling each other by their first names is a sign of them becoming closer. But just because you mentioned it: am I the only one who would find it annoying if Mulder and Scully became a couple and all of a sudden started calling each other "Fox" and "Dana"? Anyone (even family members) calling them by their first names on the show just seems wierd to me.

I don't think that Scully would chose Doggett over Mulder if all three of them were working together in the same office. She's loyal, too loyal to Mulder and I don't feel she wants to let him down. I think what could have happened in that scenario would be that Mulder (the psychologist) would eventually just move on and away from his emotional attachment to Scully, the XF are his life, everything else will never come as a top priority, not even Scully, and I think he would be the one to end their relationship. Even in "Requiem" he told Scully that there's so much more she needs to do with her life, he was showing signs then that he wants so much more for her than what he has to offer. Mulder's no dummy, he'd know that Doggett is in love with her and I don't think he (Mulder) would want to stand in the way of Scully finding true happiness and if it would be with Doggett, I don't think Mulder would object - since if they had been working together he would know that Doggett is a great man, and a good fit for Scully.

I don't think that Doggett would fight for Scully, he respects her, Mulder, and their relationship too much. He's honorable. However, I think that if he saw the relationship between Mulder and Scully being unhealthy or unfair to Scully that in the right circumstance he may sit down with her (or with Mulder) one-on-one and express his feelings about not wanting to see Scully so unhappy. I don't think that he'd tell Scully that he's in love with her, but his eyes express a lot, and I'm sure Scully (even on the series) knows how he feels for her. If this were to happen, I think that it could be a catalyst to make Scully sit back and take things in and make the decision that is best for her, not best for Mulder's needs.

If Mulder and Scully broke up, went on to live different personal lives, and still had their child, they would split custody so that both of them were equally in the child's life (well, until some alien something-or-other popped up and Mulder had to go run off to investigate that - I think aliens and the like would take highest priority in Mulder's life - even over that of being with his own child).
I’m just wondering which parts of the show make you think that aliens, the X-Files etc. would be more important to Mulder than Scully (and William if we’re saying they didn’t give him up). When M&S first met, yes, the X-Files were Mulder’s life. But I think as time went on, Scully became the most important thing to him. The X-Files are burnt down at one point, but he recovers some of them and his life goes on. Then look at him after Scully was abducted. He gets his precious X-Files back, but he’s still depressed and so unlike his normal self until Scully is returned. On the other hand, when he and Scully are taken off the X-Files in early season 6, he’s not happy about it but it’s nothing like the dejected and miserable Mulder we saw after Ascension.

As for there being a love triangle that has to be resolved, I agree that Doggett would respect M&S’s relationship. And there would probably be that awkwardness when Mulder first comes back, just because he’s been dead and gone for months and he’s returning to a whole different life. And if Scully was unhappy, Mulder and Doggett would react like you said. But I don’t think this would be a problem because I don’t think Scully, after trying so hard to get Mulder back and thinking that he’s dead, would be unhappy when he comes back. Like if you look at Scully after Mulder was returned (think the end of Deadalive, the shippy parts of Empedocles and the end of Existence) and if you compare that to when he was gone (end of TINH or opening of Deadalive) and I don’t think anyone would have to be concerned about her happiness.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 19:18

Aciano wrote:


Maybe we never saw them being a “proper couple” but I don’t think it’s in their nature to sit down and talk about their feelings, make mushy speeches about how much they love each other etc. At least not while they’re still working on the X-Files together. If they were to quit the FBI and get more “normal” jobs I could see them getting married and raising William. But that wouldn’t be very entertaining for us viewers.

So as far as declarations of love go, I think “you’ve my one in five billion” or “you’ve my constant, my touchstone” is more of their style.


Yeah, well not all couples have to have sappy conversations in order to make it clear they want to be a proper couple. I mean, I cant stand the whole "touchstone and constant" thing nor the "one in 5 billion" thing. I mean, thats sappy to me and who talks like that?! biggrin I dont need them to have some sort of ChickFlick moment, just some sort of realistic indication that they are really together. I mean, even when the nurse in Empedocles asks if he is the father or the husband, why cant he answer that?

I would never want them to like go on dates after they solved each X File every week, but some sort of normality, happiness as a couple would sit fine with me. I also dont know how to start to think of them as getting married, it just seems too weird, but I guess I think of that when it comes to having a baby together...but then that whole baby thing happened weirdly too.


they both knew they loved each other. I mean, they’re both very smart people and it’s not exactly hard to see it.

They were "smart" people but in the love game, man, they were dumb!! LOL. I mean, if they were smart, surely they would have acted on that love earlier on? Was it love? Or was it "settling" for Scully and was it Mulder just finding someone who put up with him and didnt double cross him?


I agree that getting Mulder and Scully together as a couple was an attempt to keep viewers interested but I think that if you had the right writers, you could have them together AND interesting stories.

ITA. If their characters developed realistically and Mulder was nicer to her.

Then of course the show went downhill because DD didn’t want to do it anymore and it wasn’t the same without him. If you have a show with only two main characters that the audience knows and loves, you can’t just take one of them away and simply replace him. They could have replaced Mulder with just about anybody, and it wouldn’t have worked.

I think the show was better without him. But then thats me, and thats obvious to how I react to all of this. I think they did a wonderful job in "replacing" Mulder and then I also dont think he was replaced...and I can safely say a lot of people liked Doggett and the actor who came in to take the male leads place. For me , it showed me how TXF as a show was more about the Files than Mulder. But then I love and have always loved (I mean before Doggett came along) the Mulder and Scully-less episodes, such as The Unnatural, Unusual Suspects, Musings, Travellers etc...I knew then that I loved mainly the show and it didnt have to have Mulder and or Scully in it for it to be awesome.



About Mulder not always being nice to Scully: yes, there are times when Mulder can be a jerk, but I don’t think he tries to hurt her, just as she doesn’t try to hurt him. As in any realistic romantic relationship, you’re not always going to get along. I think it would be much stranger to have them smiling and agreeing with each other all the time. That would creep me out a bit (...or a lot).

Yeah, I mean, as I said, I loved the arguments they had in Never Again...man, I get hot when Doggett and Scully argue. Thats all normal. But oh man, too many times, in my mind, Mulder was more than a jerk to her. I dont think he meant to hurt her either. I just think he is a bit selfish.


Mulder is obsessed with his work; I think this is a fact. But it’s not like he just ignores her. There are plenty of cases where Scully is in some dangerous situation and Mulder does absolutely anything to get her out of it. Flying to Antarctica and freezing my ass off in a giant alien spaceship doesn’t sound my idea of fun tongue
Yeah, the FTF rescue was one time when Mulder was hero. But do I really have to list all the times Mulder dumped Scully?? Or chose to do what he wanted over what she wanted? He doesnt have to be under her thumb but, ok -

Detour, decides to let her go to the Wine and Cheese thing and the Team Building thing without her for a case. Then she comes to him and he then walks out on her again, whilst she is pouring him wine.

In Jersey Devil he lets her drive back to DC all alone in order to look into the case.
In End Game, goes off without her and leaves her an email on his computer.
In Talitha Cumi, totally ditches her and runs off with Jeremiah Smith.
In Blessing Way, totally runs off without her in that mining thing.
He jumps on the train in Nisei when she tells him not to.
Takes her out of her family dinner in Gethsemane just to show something he knows she doesnt believe in
Suddenly doesnt believe in The Red And The Black, when she is trying to be open minded and has an experience and is completely off with her cause now she believes and he doesnt.
Dont even get me started on what he does in How The Ghosts Stole Xmas!!!!!!
In season 8, completely rude about the partner she had whilst he was away, whom protected her and protects the X Files, and then has a very selfish reaction to the fact she is pregnant...making it about him.
Leaves her in season 9 to go into hiding when she has just had a kid.
Tells her to tell the baby that he went down swinging or something when he is on the radio to her in Vienen...as if to say, his case is more important than making sure he gets out alive for his child.
Tells her what to do all time, like in Milagro and Never Again. She is right, he is not her supierior.
IWTB? Man, where do I start?


I think it’s quite clear that Doggett has feelings for her, but I never got the feeling that Scully was looking for anything but friendship.


Oh man, she was looking for more than friendship when he was wearing that hospital gown in Medusa!! banana

I really think she fancied Doggett and I dont think she was even looking for friendship or looking for anything. I just think how she cared for Doggett was just cause he was so nice to her.

I actually felt bad for Doggett at times. He’s so nice and caring towards her, but she doesn’t let him in. She runs off without him in Roadrunners, and didn’t even tell him that she was pregnant. In my opinion, you would tell someone that you really trusted that you were going to have a baby.


Well, lets be clear, she certainly wasnt happy about not telling him about the pregnancy. You can see how regretful she is of her secrecy to him in Per Manum and in Via Negativa and even Medusa. She didnt tell him, cause yeah, perhas she didnt fully trust him, but she said its cause she didnt want to be taken of TXF unit. I dont think she knew Doggett well enough at all to tell him such a thing anyways. I dont think it was just about trust.

It’s funny that you say you thought Scully would want a lot of attention, because I was just about to say how independent she is. Oh well. I just always thought that Scully would go crazy if she had someone being so protective of her all the time. She doesn’t want to be treated any different than if Mulder/Doggett had a male partner and I think she would get very annoyed very quickly if one of them started hovering (kind of how Mulder kept asking her how she was when he first learned about her cancer. I think her line was “quit staring at me, Mulder, I’m fine!”).

Yeah, but she wasnt fine was she? She said that to him cause she wasnt fine. Like she did at the end of Irresistible. She wasnt fine at all and he knew that and she needed a hug and she broke down crying. She tries to be tough all the time, but she actually wants to be cared for.

I think you might misunderstand when I say I think she wants attention from men. I dont mean that she aint independant. I really think she is and she is very strong. But she wants a man to look after her I think. She wants a man to pay attention to her needs when she has those needs. When she opens up to Mulder he seems to always joke to her or not really get down to her level of upset.



I disagree that M&S have an unhealthy relationship. In fact, I think it’s the complete opposite. I think that there has always been a gentler side to their relationship, and that they need each other, in a way that Scully never had with Doggett. Just look at her reaction to Diana Fowley. Scully saw Mulder holding hands with her, and immediately you could tell how upset she was. And after that, she’s practically glaring at Diana every time she sees her. If you compare that to the way she treats Monica Reyes, there’s a huge difference. Monica is attractive and is going to be replacing her as Doggett’s new partner, and she doesn’t have a single problem with it. I think if Diana or Pheobe was assigned to replace her as Mulder’s partner, she would be very unhappy about it.

Scully definately has a jealous side, sure. And she was quite jealous, I feel, when she learned Reyes was on the case in TINH... she said "Enjoy your new company." She seemed hurt and annoyed he wanted to have an open minded opinion but not hers.

Diana was Mulder's old flame, and seemed to be involved in their case for more than what she was saying. I think she didnt trust her and didnt like her trying to get in on Mulder just cause they had a history. She was also jealous of Karin Burkwitz too and she really shoudnt have been She can be jealous, yeah sure. That doesnt really mean much for me when it comes to a long term relationship. Usually jealousy means she is insecure in the relationship.

Obviously Mulder and Scully are nearly complete opposites, but I don’t see the “clash of personalities” that you spoke about. I think if two people are too different, that relationship wouldn’t work but M&S are not at that point because they have had a working relationship for years. This goes both ways, but it never made a difference to me because Scully never looked to me like she was interested in a relationship with Doggett.

How do we know she wasnt interested in a relationship with Doggett? Was there really a realistic opportunity for her ? I tend to think she was, I think she looked at him in a certain way. I really do and it aint cause I want to see it.

I honestly dont think Mulder and Scully deep down suit eachother and their differences do make a lot of issues with me. I think the more they worked together, the more they didnt agree. They got so frustrated with one another being so different. I think that Scully is so like Doggett too, in ways she is not like Mulder.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 19:24

Aciano wrote:

I’m just wondering which parts of the show make you think that aliens, the X-Files etc. would be more important to Mulder than Scully (and William if we’re saying they didn’t give him up). When M&S first met, yes, the X-Files were Mulder’s life. But I think as time went on, Scully became the most important thing to him. The X-Files are burnt down at one point, but he recovers some of them and his life goes on. Then look at him after Scully was abducted. He gets his precious X-Files back, but he’s still depressed and so unlike his normal self until Scully is returned. On the other hand, when he and Scully are taken off the X-Files in early season 6, he’s not happy about it but it’s nothing like the dejected and miserable Mulder we saw after Ascension.

Man, its so clear all the time that his quest, his files are more important than her. Really. Look at all the times he chose his cases over her. He likes Scully around, sure, but thats just cause he needs her. I dont think he puts her 1st.


I don’t think anyone would have to be concerned about her happiness.

She didnt look too happy in Three Words when she took Mulder back to his apartment. She didnt look too happy when Mulder is in the office that is no longer is. She didnt look too happy in Alone when Mulder tells Scully to stop searching for Doggett...

she looked really depressed the whole time in IWTB.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Aciano on Mon 25 Jul 2011, 23:34

gorgclaud wrote: Yeah, well not all couples have to have sappy conversations in order to make it clear they want to be a proper couple. I mean, I cant stand the whole "touchstone and constant" thing nor the "one in 5 billion" thing. I mean, thats sappy to me and who talks like that?! biggrin I dont need them to have some sort of ChickFlick moment, just some sort of realistic indication that they are really together. I mean, even when the nurse in Empedocles asks if he is the father or the husband, why cant he answer that?

I would never want them to like go on dates after they solved each X File every week, but some sort of normality, happiness as a couple would sit fine with me. I also dont know how to start to think of them as getting married, it just seems too weird, but I guess I think of that when it comes to having a baby together...but then that whole baby thing happened weirdly too.
How can we be sure that they didn’t have a conversation like that? Unfortunately for MSR shippers like me, most of the developments in their relationship seem to happen off-screen. From little things like having the keys to each other’s apartments to the naked pretzel, we didn’t see any of it. But when you think about it, I’m not sure it’s even possible to sleep with your best friend and FBI partner, then show up to work the next day and go on with your normal routines with that person. You’d have to either talk about it, or get assigned to somebody else because it’s too awkward. And since there were no letters of resignation, I’d have to think they discussed it sometime. As for the nurse in Empedocles: I don't think she ever asked him if he was the father. I just remember him saying no, he's not the husband and the nurse leaving.

Then in Je Souhaite we see them watching a movie in Mulder’s apartment, drinking beer and some playful banter about the movie choice. I think that’s pretty normal. And in Hollywood AD, they head out to a night in LA holding hands and with a Bureau credit card. We don’t see what happens next, but I’d say it’s not chasing fluke monsters down a sewer. wub

They were "smart" people but in the love game, man, they were dumb!! LOL. I mean, if they were smart, surely they would have acted on that love earlier on? Was it love? Or was it "settling" for Scully and was it Mulder just finding someone who put up with him and didnt double cross him?
Oh I definitely think it was love. Why they didn’t act on it? I don’t think we’ll ever know, but I have never had any doubts that they loved each other. She puts her career on the line for him, though he tells her not to. As shown in Wetwired, her biggest fear is losing him. On a couple occasions, Mulder will get upset and she will be near tears just seeing him like that (the comfort scene in Sein und Ziet and the diary scene in Closure come to mind).

As for Mulder, he nearly kills Duane Barry because he hurt Scully and before that, risked his life by climbing on top of a ski-lift-type-thing in an attempt to get her back. And he said he loved her. I know, he was drugged up, but I think that was heartfelt and the drugs just made him more brave and likely to randomly say something like that. Besides, Scully shot him once and nearly did a few more times, so if he simply wanted someone to hang out with, he could choose someone less dangerous.

I think the show was better without him. But then thats me, and thats obvious to how I react to all of this. I think they did a wonderful job in "replacing" Mulder and then I also dont think he was replaced...and I can safely say a lot of people liked Doggett and the actor who came in to take the male leads place. For me , it showed me how TXF as a show was more about the Files than Mulder. But then I love and have always loved (I mean before Doggett came along) the Mulder and Scully-less episodes, such as The Unnatural, Unusual Suspects, Musings, Travellers etc...I knew then that I loved mainly the show and it didnt have to have Mulder and or Scully in it for it to be awesome.
A lot of people did like Doggett being the male lead instead of Mulder, but a lot of people disliked it too. I don’t think there’s a way to really debate this, because differently people are going to like different characters and different seasons. But I will say that The Unnatural and Musings are some of my favorites (and not just cause of the baseball scene at the end!). Unusual Suspects, Travellers and Three of a Kind aren’t bad either.

Yeah, I mean, as I said, I loved the arguments they had in Never Again...man, I get hot when Doggett and Scully argue. Thats all normal. But oh man, too many times, in my mind, Mulder was more than a jerk to her. I dont think he meant to hurt her either. I just think he is a bit selfish.
He can be a bit selfish, I won’t deny that. But, like I said above, he does truly care about her. In End Game, he trades away someone he believes in Samantha for Scully, and everyone who’s seen an episode of X-Files knows how important Samantha is to him.

But I do love seeing them argue, and I love the tension in Never Again. biggrin

Yeah, the FTF rescue was one time when Mulder was hero. But do I really have to list all the times Mulder dumped Scully?? Or chose to do what he wanted over what she wanted? He doesnt have to be under her thumb but, ok -

Detour, decides to let her go to the Wine and Cheese thing and the Team Building thing without her for a case. Then she comes to him and he then walks out on her again, whilst she is pouring him wine.

In Jersey Devil he lets her drive back to DC all alone in order to look into the case.
In End Game, goes off without her and leaves her an email on his computer.
In Talitha Cumi, totally ditches her and runs off with Jeremiah Smith.
In Blessing Way, totally runs off without her in that mining thing.
He jumps on the train in Nisei when she tells him not to.
Takes her out of her family dinner in Gethsemane just to show something he knows she doesnt believe in
Suddenly doesnt believe in The Red And The Black, when she is trying to be open minded and has an experience and is completely off with her cause now she believes and he doesnt.
Dont even get me started on what he does in How The Ghosts Stole Xmas!!!!!!
In season 8, completely rude about the partner she had whilst he was away, whom protected her and protects the X Files, and then has a very selfish reaction to the fact she is pregnant...making it about him.
Leaves her in season 9 to go into hiding when she has just had a kid.
Tells her to tell the baby that he went down swinging or something when he is on the radio to her in Vienen...as if to say, his case is more important than making sure he gets out alive for his child.
Tells her what to do all time, like in Milagro and Never Again. She is right, he is not her supierior.
IWTB? Man, where do I start?
Okay I’m not going to respond to all of these because to be honest I’m not even sure what the situation is for a couple of these episodes off the top of my head. Maybe I should watch the whole show again. I know I agree with you about the wine thing in Detour, Gethsemane, The Red and Black, season 8 to a certain degree and (of course) IWTB.

Detour-I don’t think he was ever trying to send her off without her, more like them both leaving. That seminar was for partners, so she couldn’t have done it alone even if she wanted to
Jersey Devil-wasn’t that because she had a date? And driving back to DC alone isn’t really all that bad IMO
Nisei-he gets himself in trouble, but she’s not hurt and doesn’t have to go out and rescue him, X does that
How the Ghosts Stole Xmas-he is immature but I honestly never got the impression she was truly upset about it. Sure, she was annoyed but after all that, she still goes over to his apartment to open presents.
Season 9-this was to protect her and William…or really they just gave us that excuse because DD didn’t want to be on the show, but either way that’s the official story
Vienen-I’m pretty sure he’s kidding, trying to ease the tension in a serious situation. She might not find it all that funny, but once again I don’t think it really bothered her that much. He’s been in much worse situations and been just fine.
Never Again-he gets what he deserves and gets his feelings hurt in the end
Milagro-I don’t remember him ever telling her what to do. Like I said, maybe I need to watch it again

I think this whole ditching trend has to do with the fact that Mulder doesn’t treat her any different than he would treat a male partner. When Krycek is his partner, he does the same to him. He knows that he doesn’t have to watch over her, she’s a grown woman and perfectly capable of handling situations herself. And FTF wasn’t the only time he plays the hero. They save each others’ lives on a pretty regular basis.

Oh man, she was looking for more than friendship when he was wearing that hospital gown in Medusa!! banana

I really think she fancied Doggett and I dont think she was even looking for friendship or looking for anything. I just think how she cared for Doggett was just cause he was so nice to her.

I completely agree that he cared for her and she cared for him. But she has a tendency to go right back to Mulder when given the chance. Right after Medusa (with the hospital gown) and Per Manum (where Doggett says “at least you’re okay”), there’s TINH and Deadalive, where it’s quite obvious her focus is not on Doggett. Then in The Truth she runs off with Mulder without a second thought, knowing that she might never see Doggett or Skinner, her friends, again. (Does she even say goodbye?)

Well, lets be clear, she certainly wasnt happy about not telling him about the pregnancy. You can see how regretful she is of her secrecy to him in Per Manum and in Via Negativa and even Medusa. She didnt tell him, cause yeah, perhas she didnt fully trust him, but she said its cause she didnt want to be taken of TXF unit. I dont think she knew Doggett well enough at all to tell him such a thing anyways. I dont think it was just about trust.

She says that she didn’t tell him because she didn’t want to be taken off the X-Files, but that doesn’t make any sense. How would she be taken off the X-Files by telling Doggett? Unless he told someone, of course. So if she trusted him not to tell anyone, why didn’t she tell him about her pregnancy? She might have been regretful, but that doesn’t change the fact that she kept it from him. And in the beginning, of course she doesn’t know him well enough to tell him that she’s pregnant and her first impression of him isn’t great. But by Medusa, they’ve been working together for months. It seems reasonable to me that if she really trusted him that much, that she would tell him that she’s pregnant. I mean, he’s going to find out soon anyways. Pregnancy isn’t exactly the kind of thing you can keep secret forever, so why not tell him?

Yeah, but she wasnt fine was she? She said that to him cause she wasnt fine. Like she did at the end of Irresistible. She wasnt fine at all and he knew that and she needed a hug and she broke down crying. She tries to be tough all the time, but she actually wants to be cared for.

I think you might misunderstand when I say I think she wants attention from men. I dont mean that she aint independant. I really think she is and she is very strong. But she wants a man to look after her I think. She wants a man to pay attention to her needs when she has those needs. When she opens up to Mulder he seems to always joke to her or not really get down to her level of upset.
Of course she’s not fine at all, and Mulder knows that. He holds her when she cries in Irresistible and Milagro, and he’s there for her during the hardest parts in her life (her cancer, her infertility, the death of Emily). What I was saying with the “I’m fine” thing is that I think she gets annoyed with men fussing over her too much. This goes back to the ditching thing. I don’t think Mulder is thinking “Oh how am I going to piss off Scully today? Well I’ll ditch her”. I think he’s treating her the same way he would treat any other partner, because he knows she is very capable and can take care of herself.

Scully definately has a jealous side, sure. And she was quite jealous, I feel, when she learned Reyes was on the case in TINH... she said "Enjoy your new company." She seemed hurt and annoyed he wanted to have an open minded opinion but not hers.

Diana was Mulder's old flame, and seemed to be involved in their case for more than what she was saying. I think she didnt trust her and didnt like her trying to get in on Mulder just cause they had a history. She was also jealous of Karin Burkwitz too and she really shoudnt have been She can be jealous, yeah sure. That doesnt really mean much for me when it comes to a long term relationship. Usually jealousy means she is insecure in the relationship.
Jealousy can mean insecurity, but it can also mean that she wants to make sure that Diana and Pheobe (and Karin ) know that Mulder is “hers”. You have to remember that Reyes and Doggett also had a past, maybe not romantic, but he knew Reyes before he met her. She might give a snarky line or two while she was adjusting to the idea of having someone new to work with, but overall she doesn’t seem nearly as upset with Reyes as she did with Diana. Even after Reyes fully replaces her as Doggett’s partner, she doesn’t mind it nearly as much as she seems to mind merely speaking to Diana.

How do we know she wasnt interested in a relationship with Doggett? Was there really a realistic opportunity for her ? I tend to think she was, I think she looked at him in a certain way. I really do and it aint cause I want to see it.

I honestly dont think Mulder and Scully deep down suit eachother and their differences do make a lot of issues with me. I think the more they worked together, the more they didnt agree. They got so frustrated with one another being so different. I think that Scully is so like Doggett too, in ways she is not like Mulder.
There's no way to really know who she was interested in, but I think that she could have made a move while Mulder was "dead" if she really wanted to. Mulder and Scully might be different in a lot of ways, but it seemed to me that they got better at getting along as time passed, and for two people who spend that much time together, they really do get along well. Anyone who's ever had a sibling knows that the more time we spend with people, the more we tend to argue. But most of the disagreements we see between M&S aren't serious, but rather a little bickering before resolving it. The biggest fight I can think of is Never Again, and that's working together for 7 years.

gorgclaud wrote: Man, its so clear all the time that his quest, his files are more important than her. Really. Look at all the times he chose his cases over her. He likes Scully around, sure, but thats just cause he needs her. I dont think he puts her 1st.
I think it’s far more than him just “wanting her around”. Look at that speech he gives in FTF. “You've kept me honest. You've made me a whole person. I owe you everything, Scully, and you owe me nothing. I don't know if I want to do this alone. I don't even know if I can.” He screws up, but deep down he needs her much more than he needs his cases. Also in that movie, one of the Syndicate members says something like “"Then you must take away the thing that he cannot live without." Even their enemies know that if you want to ruin Mulder, you hurt Scully.

She didnt look too happy in Three Words when she took Mulder back to his apartment. She didnt look too happy when Mulder is in the office that is no longer is. She didnt look too happy in Alone when Mulder tells Scully to stop searching for Doggett...

she looked really depressed the whole time in IWTB.
Like I said before, it’s not going to be a perfect transition. I mean, the guy just came back from the dead, there’s going to be some weirdness. But even her unhappy moments when Mulder is back are nothing compared to Within, TINH or Deadalive.

And I’m not even going to defend IWTB. Besides, it would take hours for you to type up everything that is wrong with the way they act in it, so how about neither of us waste time on this horrible movie? tongue
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 09:00

Aciano wrote:

How can we be sure that they didn’t have a conversation like that?


Well if you said that about everything in The X Files show, then anything is possible isnt it?

How can we be sure Scully wasn’t doing paperwork with Skinner? How can we be sure CSM didn’t dry hump her in En Ami? Its not even worth trying to talk about things that we didn’t see.

We cant be sure they didn’t but then we cant be sure they did either.

We weren’t given any clear scene of them together properly or romantically. Its just detached and vague and i think that was done on purpose to not have them together but have the Shippers hold on for hope and ultimately tune in all the time. Carter relied on the assumption that the only fans left at that point in season 7, 8 or 9 were Shippers. But he was quite wrong to assume that.

Unfortunately for MSR shippers like me, most of the developments in their relationship seem to happen off-screen
.

Really? So for MSR Shippers you are so aware that there was not enough moments to be sure they were together that you have to imagine it all happened off screen? For me as a DSR fan, I just hold on to what I did see.

But when you think about it, I’m not sure it’s even possible to sleep with your best friend and FBI partner, then show up to work the next day and go on with your normal routines with that person. You’d have to either talk about it, or get assigned to somebody else because it’s too awkward. And since there were no letters of resignation, I’d have to think they discussed it sometime

Yeah I agree and thats what I have a problem with. I have enough to do without having to read between the lines for 7, 8 or 9 years with Mulder and Scully! If it aint there, it aint there for me. ANd when it was apparently "there", it didnt excite me in the slightest. I think cause people had had the whole sexual tension for so long and it went on for longer than was realistic for them to one day look at eachother differently that people got bored of wondering what happened between scenes.

It is completely weird for them to kiss and then not talk about afterwards. Why cant we have something where we talk about? If we see them kiss, why cant we see them talk about it?

As for the nurse in Empedocles: I don't think she ever asked him if he was the father. I just remember him saying no, he's not the husband and the nurse leaving.

Yeah, you're right, she asks if he is the husband and she doesn’t ask if he is the father (though I would say that would be the next thing I would ask him) ....but he says No. So why cant he just say "but I am the father" or "but I’m the boyfriend" or "I’m the birth partner" or “I’m her close personal friend” ...whatever.

More hopeful, that nurse asks if Doggett is the husband too! LOL. You see how people from the outside are as frustrated as the viewers! If Mulder aint the husband, then why not and how’s about this handsome guy in a suit? He surely is the husband. If Scully hadn’t met Mulder in her life, I betcha Doggett would have been Scully's husband. No messing around.


Then in Je Souhaite we see them watching a movie in Mulder’s apartment, drinking beer and some playful banter about the movie choice. I think that’s pretty normal. And in Hollywood AD, they head out to a night in LA holding hands and with a Bureau credit card. We don’t see what happens next, but I’d say it’s not chasing fluke monsters down a sewer. wub

Sure, you AND I could name dozens of moments together like that. Sometimes they did normal things. In Red Museum ,they have a meal out. That was season 2. To me that doesn’t mean they are soul mates or belong together. I have always been comfortable with the fact that they could have tried to have been together but found they didn’t suit each other. That’s far more realistic. But they were thrown together in the end, just for viewers and it sucked and it was completely transparent. And no one wanted that anyway. Everyone was in praise of the only TV show at that time to not have the leads do a Moonlighting thing. Even in Lois and Clark, where we know eventually they will get together, the viewers got less interested in it once they did.


Oh I definitely think it was love. Why they didn’t act on it? I don’t think we’ll ever know, but I have never had any doubts that they loved each other. She puts her career on the line for him, though he tells her not to. As shown in Wetwired, her biggest fear is losing him. On a couple occasions, Mulder will get upset and she will be near tears just seeing him like that (the comfort scene in Sein und Ziet and the diary scene in Closure come to mind).

They didn’t act on it cause the writers thought it was more interesting for the show if they just stayed partners and friends and focused on the Files.

And if they intended on making them romantically involved then its unrealistic to have them wait that long. And I know they didn’t intend for that to happen. The writers and producers and namely Chris Carter just caved in. You should see all the interviews from the main guys about the possibility of Mulder and Scully getting together and see how they say they never want to do that and how that’s really uninteresting to them. How do MSR fans deal with this? I would be very interested. In contrast you had the producers and Carter talk about Doggett and Scully getting together around season 8 being aired and it being a possibility and something that could happen in the future.


As for Mulder, he nearly kills Duane Barry because he hurt Scully and before that, risked his life by climbing on top of a ski-lift-type-thing in an attempt to get her back. And he said he loved her. I know, he was drugged up, but I think that was heartfelt and the drugs just made him more brave and likely to randomly say something like that. Besides, Scully shot him once and nearly did a few more times, so if he simply wanted someone to hang out with, he could choose someone less dangerous.

Well, we have 7 plus years of them as partners saving each others ass. That doesn’t mean they belong together in a romantic relationship. That was the deal for TXF. They worked together, they cared about each other, they defended each other. That was great. But lovers? Yeah sure, its a possibility but as I said, when I saw it on screen it didn’t excite me and even more so when I saw how Mulder was with Scully, thinking of himself over her, it became even less appealing.

And this doesn’t even factor in Doggett. I felt this way WAY before Doggett was even an idea in Carters mind. I felt this way in Season 5 -ish, perhaps even earlier.

You know something I will always remember reading was a small article about the show, when it was airing its 1st year in the UK. I loved the show, loved the stories, it had me on the edge of my seat. And in the article it mentioned all of those great things about it and then added "the UST between Mulder and Scully is fun too" or something like that. I can safely remember thinking "oh yeah, I guess they do have some sort of unresolved sexual tension...that is fun." But never really thought about it before. I guess thats cause it just wasn’t something I TRULY saw within them when they were together or perhaps they didn’t really set my fire alight. It then became something that was PLANTED in my mind to look out for.

If I compare that to Doggett and Scully, I certainly wasn’t trying to look for any UST between them...I was just enjoying the show. But it was there and to me it was there more than it was there for Mulder and Scully and I have explained how and why it excites me before.


But I will say that The Unnatural and Musings are some of my favourites (and not just cause of the baseball scene at the end!). Unusual Suspects, Travellers and Three of a Kind aren’t bad either.
Well that makes me happy to hear, cause that’s rare, but then why do you feel the show couldn’t carry on without Mulder if some of these are your favourites?


A lot of people did like Doggett being the male lead instead of Mulder, but a lot of people disliked it too. I don’t think there’s a way to really debate this, because differently people are going to like different characters and different seasons.

Well we just cant debate things properly if we just throw our hands up and say “people have different opinions” cause that’s obvious. What Im saying is that you said people didn’t like Mulder’s replacement but I was there at the time season 8 aired and a lot of people did and I don’t just mean some. Sure there were the internet crazies out there who got more voice than the friend of mine who lived in the USA and told me on the phone how much she loves Doggett, but at the time and even now, a lot of people were very sick and tired of Mulder and thought RP was a terrific actor who brought an energy and a freshness to the show that no one else did. He revived the writers and his co-actors. DD merely bored them in my opinion. He made the show move to LA for him and his family and then ditched the show not long after. This has nothing to do with MSR v DSR but you cant say to me people stopped liking the show when RP came along cause I know A LOT people who loved it when he left. The fact is, now in the post-death of TXF, the nostalgia sets in and its only the shippers who really want to still talk about things. You wont get many fans of the show who loved the alien stories coming online to talk about it, cause its all said and done. It was a phase in society when everyone was really curious about UFOs etc. And you wont get enough people fighting for a voice when they say they liked Doggett anymore cause they got torn down so many times over the years. There are only a handful and these handful (namely people here and myself) get hate mail and torn down for even saying such a thing. But I know at the time people really loved Doggett. The thing is, no one wanted to like him…everyone was set and ready to hate him but they found they didn’t. And most of the people who still didn’t like him didn’t even bother to watch season 8 and 9. They then did on rewatch and found they were wrong to not give him and those seasons a chance. A lot of people think season 8 is a really tight and wonderful season.

And lets also be clear, the X Files lost a lot of ratings around season 4 and onwards. I was there to read that too. I was there when on the news they would have reports on the entertainment section that the show might finish in season 5 because of bad ratings. Then there are articles about how happy RP and co were when they found out that season 8’s ratings were good and his character was getting praise from everyone.



He can be a bit selfish, I won’t deny that. But, like I said above, he does truly care about her. In End Game, he trades away someone he believes in Samantha for Scully, and everyone who’s seen an episode of X-Files knows how important Samantha is to him.
I actually really believe Mulder does care for Scully and does love her. But I don’t think he loves her properly or knows how to love her and I don’t think deep down, she really wants to be with him.



Detour-I don’t think he was ever trying to send her off without her, more like them both leaving. That seminar was for partners, so she couldn’t have done it alone even if she wanted to

Well basically he did let her go to the team building meeting alone. It was meant for partners to go and he made it clear he wasn’t going to go, after they had driven half way there.

The car stopped at a crime scene, he got interested in the crime scene and Scully told Mulder they have to get going and he told her he aint going and she went along to the wine and cheese thing alone. She then didn’t bother going to the team building meeting and met up with him in a motel where the crime happened. He then got up immediately and left her in the hotel room.

Jersey Devil-wasn’t that because she had a date? And driving back to DC alone isn’t really all that bad IMO

Well I wouldn’t know, but yes, she had her God sons birthday party to go to. Something she had planned to do for her weekend and wasn’t willing to give up for Mulder. She then complained to Mulder that she didn’t want to drive back to DC cause it was a long drive in Friday night traffic. So to Scully, she did make it quite clear that driving back to DC was that bad in her view.


How the Ghosts Stole Xmas-he is immature but I honestly never got the impression she was truly upset about it. Sure, she was annoyed but after all that, she still goes over to his apartment to open presents.

Well isn’t that Carters bad writing in my opinion. Its made out that Mulder took Scully’s car keys in order to make her join him in the haunted house. But then Im not sure if that was something the ghosts made out her did or something he actually did. But again, she had a family appointment and he made her feel guilty for needing to go to it.


Season 9-this was to protect her and William…or really they just gave us that excuse because DD didn’t want to be on the show, but either way that’s the official story
Well it was more to protect himself and yes of course it’s an awful reason just to let DD be absent. They could have come up with loads of better ideas but the fact is, this is what he did and that doesn’t sit right with me. Does Carter like to sabotage his own thing here? I mean, I cant see how he wrote them in IWTB and thinks they are happy together.


Vienen-I’m pretty sure he’s kidding, trying to ease the tension in a serious situation. She might not find it all that funny, but once again I don’t think it really bothered her that much. He’s been in much worse situations and been just fine.

Sure, but how typical. Scully is having his baby and all he can think about is being a hero for his X Files. That stinks to me. And I always get really annoyed when he is always joking to ease a situation when Scully is upset.


Milagro-I don’t remember him ever telling her what to do. Like I said, maybe I need to watch it again

Well it aint a big deal but he tells her that she needs to do an autopsy. As usual. And look at how attracted she was to be with Padgett…someone whom thought she was divine and sexy and beautiful, she ends up quite quickly in his apartment. Like I said, she wants male attention.

I think this whole ditching trend has to do with the fact that Mulder doesn’t treat her any different than he would treat a male partner. When Krycek is his partner, he does the same to him.

Well when he does that to Krycek, he does that at a very paranoid time for Mulder and he just knew him for like 2 minutes when he ditched him like someone’s bad date (love that line biggrin ) Whereas the times he ditched Scully was after years of being with her and after those nice moments where he showed he trusted her. He said to her many times she is the only one he can trust. And if Mulder did to that to a male partner then I wouldn’t be happy about that either. But if he is doing that to a partner whom he loves, then that’s worse.


He knows that he doesn’t have to watch over her, she’s a grown woman and perfectly capable of handling situations herself. And FTF wasn’t the only time he plays the hero. They save each others’ lives on a pretty regular basis.

He should save her when she is in trouble, cause he is her FBI partner, but I feel like FTF was the only time he was her hero. In the amount of cases they have had together, I never truly got the sense he was her hero in the line of danger.


I completely agree that he cared for her and she cared for him. But she has a tendency to go right back to Mulder when given the chance. Right after Medusa (with the hospital gown) and Per Manum (where Doggett says “at least you’re okay”), there’s TINH and Deadalive, where it’s quite obvious her focus is not on Doggett.
Sure she ends up caring for Mulder over Doggett. That’s a given. Mulder comes back and that’s that. But she still cares for Doggett. She tells Mulder he is worth the effort in Empedocles, she nearly has a fit when she finds out Doggett is missing in Alone. She feels weird for leaving Doggett on TXF unit when she leaves for maternity. That’s the only time she is clearly upset about leaving the X Files unit. She has wanted to leave it before and then the reason she is upset about leaving it then is cause she has left Doggett without someone to watch his back.


Then in The Truth she runs off with Mulder without a second thought, knowing that she might never see Doggett or Skinner, her friends, again. (Does she even say goodbye?)
Well all of this I have a problem with. Doggett and Reyes were her friends, they helped her when Mulder wasn’t there and the same for Skinner, and to leave them all without a good bye is again, how I think her loyalty to Mulder is unhealthy. She seems hesitant to leave them in that moment…I think it was a really REALLY bad move on Scully’s part and not independent at all.


She says that she didn’t tell him because she didn’t want to be taken off the X-Files, but that doesn’t make any sense. How would she be taken off the X-Files by telling Doggett? Unless he told someone, of course. So if she trusted him not to tell anyone, why didn’t she tell him about her pregnancy?
Well, that’s just bad writing again. I always thought her reasons being cause she was scared she’d be taken off the X Files unit was a bit thin…I think the writers just wanted some tension for her and Doggett. The thing is he covered for her in Via Negativa so she could have told him and perhaps had known he would keep her secret but perhaps it was something she decided early on, to not tell him cause she didn’t trust him. When she started to trust him, she felt a lot of regret in not taking the next step and telling him her secret.

To be fair, she should have told him and she should have told everyone at the Bureau, cause yeah,they will start to notice and probably even Doggett suspected. But the fact she was scared to tell him doesn’t really upset me in their relationship at all.

She might have been regretful, but that doesn’t change the fact that she kept it from him. And in the beginning, of course she doesn’t know him well enough to tell him that she’s pregnant and her first impression of him isn’t great.

Well to me , her regret speaks volumes. Why would she be so sad about having a secret from him other wise?

She quickly grew to like Doggett. Even in Without, she has his back at the end. She gets him a desk in the next episode.


Jealousy can mean insecurity, but it can also mean that she wants to make sure that Diana and Pheobe (and Karin ) know that Mulder is “hers”. You have to remember that Reyes and Doggett also had a past, maybe not romantic, but he knew Reyes before he met her. She might give a snarky line or two while she was adjusting to the idea of having someone new to work with, but overall she doesn’t seem nearly as upset with Reyes as she did with Diana. Even after Reyes fully replaces her as Doggett’s partner, she doesn’t mind it nearly as much as she seems to mind merely speaking to Diana.

Yeah, I agree it means she wants to make it clear she wants those ladies to know Mulder is hers. That’s cool and at that point she has every right to try that. I can see how she would want Mulder. But once they started something, it was started in a very depressing way and with little fire or chemistry.

I don’t really think about Reyes when it comes to Doggett and Scully or need to look at how she reacts to Reyes in order to delve deep into what it says about her and their relationship. Scully at that point was focused on Mulder and finding him and she knew very very little about Doggett to even assume he didn’t have a wife or girlfriend.

You see, I don’t even think about Mulder and his faults with Scully when I think of how great Doggett and Scully are together. Sure, I can compare and in my mind, Mulder’s ways makes Doggett and Scully even better to me, but take Mulder out of the equation completely and I still think Doggett and Scully suit each other to no end. I still think, without the Mulder factor, Doggett and Scully have sexual chemistry, he loved her and if she opened up, she would have loved him.

As I said, I see Scully with Skinner and Pendrell too and I see them having a more loving relationship than she did at any time with Mulder.

I don’t really think about comparing them to everything that’s happened over the years, cause it’s a very different time and length and set up. You cannot compare the 7 plus years Mulder and Scully had to the 1 or 2 years Doggett and Scully had. If you do though, you actually end up with a quicker care and trust she formed with Doggett than she did with Mulder over a longer time.

Scully was more confident in season 8 and I don’t think she would have been really jealous of anyone with Doggett, cause again, she had no right to be. She had more of a right with Mulder. But I do believe that the deeper jealousy she had with Mulder when he was around other women was more insecurity than anything else. She and him hadn’t set in stone anything and he didn’t make it clear he loved her or wanted her as a lover.


There's no way to really know who she was interested in, but I think that she could have made a move while Mulder was "dead" if she really wanted to.


Again, its silly to talk about what she could have done when we just don’t know and didn’t see any evidence to support it. Yes, she could have done, she could have visited the moon and back whilst Mulder was dead but we don’t know do we?? biggrin I don’t think she would have slept with someone that quickly after Mulder’s death. She could have but I don’t think she is like that or would have wanted to. I think if she made any move to Doggett or let Doggett move to her, it would have taken longer than 3 months to do it.

But most of the disagreements we see between M&S aren't serious, but rather a little bickering before resolving it. The biggest fight I can think of is Never Again, and that's working together for 7 years.

Well Never Again was in 4 years of working with each other.

Its petty to look deep into whether their arguments were serious or not. I think arguments are most of the time healthy for couples to do. But when they argued they weren’t a couple and I don’t see how they resolved anything in Never Again. They sat in silence at the end. And she has had serious issues with Mulder, like being a never ending X File in Essence, and him not telling her he had her ova for many years. She wanted to leave him in FTF, she wanted a normal life in Dreamland…she wanted a lot of things that Mulder wasn’t offering. So these aren’t arguments, these are deep issues. Sure a bicker here and there is nothing but that’s not what I’m talking about. Im not saying just cause they had an argument or disagreed a lot meant they shouldn’t be lovers. I think the more they talk to each other the better, but they didn’t communicate properly at all in my opinion.

I think it’s far more than him just “wanting her around”. Look at that speech he gives in FTF. “You've kept me honest. You've made me a whole person. I owe you everything, Scully, and you owe me nothing. I don't know if I want to do this alone. I don't even know if I can.”

I like this scene and these lines and when I saw them in the cinema, I shed tears. But over time and deep down, it means to me HE needs her and has grown too dependant on her.


He screws up, but deep down he needs her much more than he needs his cases. Also in that movie, one of the Syndicate members says something like “"Then you must take away the thing that he cannot live without." Even their enemies know that if you want to ruin Mulder, you hurt Scully.

Yeah, Im quite sure Mulder couldn’t live without her…but he has done it a lot now and it doesn’t mean I think they are right for each other. Like I said, I think he depended on her. She was his co-dependant perhaps.


Like I said before, it’s not going to be a perfect transition. I mean, the guy just came back from the dead, there’s going to be some weirdness. But even her unhappy moments when Mulder is back are nothing compared to Within, TINH or Deadalive.

Don’t get me wrong, Scully is completely devastated that Mulder is missing and possibly dead. Of course she is. But then I feel she finds herself with a new man whom treats her very differently and then all of a sudden, a new door is opened, a new possibility that yes, she is loyal to Mulder, she might love him or did love him, but theres someone a lot more loving in Doggett for her and a lot more suited and someone whom she has connection with easier than she managed to make with Mulder. That’s just how I see it.

To say she loved Mulder or was upset when he was missing doesn’t upset my ship of Doggett and Scully in the slightest. She could quite easily love both men at the same time in my mind. Whatever. The things she felt for Mulder doesn’t affect my love for DSR in the slightest.

And I’m not even going to defend IWTB. Besides, it would take hours for you to type up everything that is wrong with the way they act in it, so how about neither of us waste time on this horrible movie? tongue

Yeah, I know what you mean, but it is there, that’s them 6 years later as a couple. Surely, to defend this relationship, it suddenly gets very shaky when IWTB is mentioned and that’s hard for me to ignore.

I also have to say, I love a debate, I love to discuss and as you can see I can do it till the cows come home. BUT, I’m not sure I see the real point. Yes, its good and just to compare, to debate this all, but why?
The reason I ask is you brought all this up; to compare DSR to MSR. Two ships are very different and comparing them doesn’t weaken or strengthen the other for me.

I think it might be a misunderstanding that DSR fans love DSR cause they think MSR sucked. I know a lot of ppl who like both equally the same. Sure, I went off MSR before DSR. But I didn’t move to DSR cause MSR didn’t work for me. I love DSR cause I love DSR. Regardless of Mulder or any of his bad moves with Scully, DSR still rocks and lights my fire when I see them together.

Sure, to me, it helps that the MSR was too rocky for me to defend, but I don’t need to in order to make DSR better.

I just wonder why MSR v DSR is an issue. Do you feel threatened by DSR? Does the idea of Doggett and Scully as a real possibility upset the MSR ship that much? Cause, the way I see it, you got what you wanted. You got Mulder and Scully together. You got 7, 8, 9 years and movies to enjoy their shipper scenes. You got those nice moments together, you got them sharing a beer, having dinner, even having a baby. You go them living together. You got them kissing. Why does it need to be defended against DSR? I aint got anything really with DSR, no kiss, no beer, no dinner…I got a lot sexy time, I got a hug and I got some awesome moments of tension, chemistry and lines from Doggett mainly, sometimes Scully, that show me they care a lot about each other and more than in a partner way. But MSR fans have pretty much everything. But, some don’t seem too satisfied. Is this because their relationship is too shaky? Is it cause you don’t get an out right declaration of love? I just baffles me why MSR lovers like to compare MSR to DSR a lot and I wonder why and I feel its cause it threatens it too much.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 09:02

Of course there is no right or wrong - of course. We just like different things. I guess it seems DSR fans always have to EXPLAIN why they like it and dont like MSR. Thats annoying cause to me its so obvious! LOL


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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 12:29

A lot of our reflection on the Mulder/Scully relationship is of episodes before they were involved in a romantic relationship together. We're focusing on the years of UST to talk about how much they care for each other, and how they love each other, but we're really not taking a good look at Mulder and Scully after they have become involved with each other. I think this is the most telling way to look at the MSR to explain why I do not support a relationship between the two of them.

I recently rewatched the end of season 7 - after "all things" where I personally believe their relationship began (physical and romantic) - in their short time together in a romantic relationship BEFORE Mulder was abducted (and this is not more than a month or a month and a half) we saw that the relationship they started with each other made them happy. Scully laughed more, smiled more, giggled, flirted, and let loose after "all things" when she came to terms with her past that was holding her back, and allowed herself to Mulder and her feelings for him. Mulder wasn't all that different after their relationship began. Sure, he invited her over to watch movies, and they hung out together without discussing any cases - that was the biggest difference that I noticed in Mulder once they hooked up. They were more relaxed and casual together, and I like that.

In "Requiem" things were turning towards angst and dramatics for their relationship, and with the threat to people who had been abducted by aliens, I think Mulder began to realize just how much risk his life's quest had put Scully in over the years, that lead up to him believing that she was at risk for being taken again. In "Requiem", Mulder is the one that tells Scully that there's so much more she needs to do with her life - as if he knows that her being with him is not going to be good for her in the long-run. Let's look at the dialog from that scene:

MULDER: No, I've been thinking about it. Looking at you tonight, holding that baby... knowing everything that's been taken away from you. A chance for motherhood and your health and that baby. I think that... I don't know, maybe they're right.

SCULLY: Who's right?

MULDER: The FBI. Maybe what they say is true, though for all the wrong reasons.
It's the personal costs that are too high.

MULDER: There so much more you need to do with your life. There's so much more
than this.

MULDER: There has to be an end, Scully.

This scene solidifies for me that Mulder had his heart in the right place with his relationship with Scully. He loves her, this is the main scene where I see just how much he loves her after they hooked up. If Mulder had treated her this kindly and with this much care throughout their entire relationship, I may have been sold on it. His words sound like he's trying to tell her to leave it all behind, to move on, and without saying it - they both know - that his choice of lifestyle is NOT the lifestyle that either of them want Scully to be living. I think that Mulder loves her, but understands that it's not good, for her, for them to be together. He loves her so much that he's willing to let her go to save her so that she can live the normal life that she had expressed wanting to have.

Then Mulder gets abducted, and Scully goes on this weeping rampage during season 8, and then miraculously Mulder is dug up from six feet under after only three months of decay and decomposition of his body - and you know he was autopsied simply because his death was under suspicious circumstances, he had been missing - so the FBI would want an autopsy of one of their own to help answer questions. He had vital organs removed, etc., etc. So anyway, he's back miraculously to fulfill Duchovny's contract for season 8 - and then we get to see the Mulder/Scully relationship after all this time has passed (a total of six months IIRC - that's ignoring the timeline ignorance of the writers of most of the s8 episodes up until he came back from the dead).

Mulder doesn't know where he stands in Scully's life anymore. Before he was abducted he knew Scully couldn't conceive a child, in vitro failed, she is barren so any sex between them wouldn't have produced a child. There's a new agent in the X-Files office. Scully is defending Doggett to Mulder and standing up for him - Scully is pregnant. Mulder shows his jealousy over Doggett by shoving him into a chair in Skinner's office, he doubts the parentage of Scully's unborn child, it's possible he suspects that somehow Doggett is the father (therefore his non-FBI/XF related jealousy towards Doggett).

Mulder comes to in the hospital and knowing how much Scully has missed him he says "Who are you?" to Scully - what kind of man, who loves the woman crying over his life being miraculously saved - does that? Yes, Mulder is a joker, but you would think he'd know the appropriate time and place for cracking a joke.

Mulder is released from the hospital and has a very, very pregnant Scully carry his overnight bags for him. This is all after we are told that Mulder is in perfect health, so there's absolutely no reason for Mulder NOT to carry his bags, but he decided to allow Scully to do it for him. His comments, his behaviour, and his focus on himself and where he stands in their world are his main concerns. Scully stands by trying to express to Mulder how happy she is that he's back, at least Mulder acknowledges he's coming off cold and ungrateful.

The happiness (laughing, giggling, smiling, flirting, sincere smiles) that Scully showed in season 7 after she and Mulder first hooked up are gone, non-existent in season 8 (season 9, and IWTB). She forces smiles, they no longer seem sincere, she is exhausted emotionally and Mulder isn't doing very much to make her feel better. Instead he's being a jerk about her partner (Doggett) and not trusting her when she defends Doggett, he doubts her - which is understandable Mulder lives by the motto "trust no one", but still he should at least lend an ear to what Scully has to say about Doggett. If Scully trusts him and says so, Mulder (the Mulder I love) would trust her, but he doesn't.

In season 8 when Mulder returns their relationship doesn't pick up where it left off - both of their lives have changed forever, their experiences (she without him, Mulder's abduction and miraculous healing *coughs* he's a Super Soldier *coughs*, John Doggett is the new man in her life - a man that she trusts and defends in a shorter time than how she and Mulder developed trust with each other in their first few years together). Before Mulder's abduction - at most - they were romantically involved for a little over a month - that's not a very long time to find their stride together as a couple. He's gone/dead for six months - three of which Scully had begun the healing process of moving on without Mulder in her life, believing him to be dead and buried forever. In the beginning of "DeadAlive" we see that she's accepted this and the friendship she has with Doggett seems more casual, more relaxed, not as up-tight as it was before Mulder was found dead in that field. Yes, I think it would take her a long time to get over Mulder, and mix that with taking care of her pregnant self, and then raising a newborn, it would be at least a year or more before she'd be ready to want to find love again. Anyway, I'm getting off on a new tangent right now about what if Mulder hadn't returned from the dead ever, and how that would eventually lead into Doggett and Scully becoming a couple. That wasn't the point of this particular post. Sorry!

So Mulder comes back to life, things are not as they were between he and Scully in their relationship before he was abducted - they are not as carefree nor are they as happy as they were before his abduction. There seems to be a cloud hovering over them, they eventually try to go on as they had been - "Empedocles" comes to mind - the scenes in her apartment, teasing over the parentage of her child (still), gift-giving, smiling (which I always felt was a bit forced rather than sincere like the laughing and smiling after "all things" in season 7). She has her baby, they share a kiss, and the question over who is the bio-dad is still up in the air.

Season 9 - Mulder leaves the very weekend that baby William was born. He barely sticks around to get to know his son, or to help Scully out with a newborn. Yes, we find out that Scully was the one that convinced Mulder to leave, but if he really wanted to do everything he could to be with the one he's supposed to be in love with so much (and to protect his newborn child from the dangers that obviously surround his new life), Mulder would have made Scully and William go with him. Fact is... he didn't. We can't look at this as "well Gillian was contracted for the season and David wasn't so that's why Mulder didn't have Scully go with him", because real life issues aren't the fictional reasons for what is going on in the story of TXF. Mulder made his ultimate ditch on Scully by leaving her alone with a newborn child, and Scully told him to leave.

Perhaps this here is where we can look back on that dialog from "Requiem" where it seems Mulder knows that he's not good for Scully's chances at living a normal life, and he left her knowing that they can never be together if she and her son are to be safe.

Scully told Mulder to leave in order to best protect him (Mulder) from those that want to harm him/Mulder (*coughs* baby William is really the one in danger *coughs* ). As much as she loves Mulder, she is willing to let him go. Her dependence on Mulder turns her into another version of the WeepyScully that we got in season 8 - only this time it's worse because we can't exactly blame the weepy mess on pregnancy hormones, this is all because she's turned into a sappy woman who can't "survive" without her man. In my opinion, this is 'ShipperScully - what Carter made Scully in the last two seasons in order to - IMO - "keep the MSR alive".

I think at this point it's very obvious that the relationship Scully has with Mulder makes her very unhappy. And to make things worse he continues to contact her via email, not allowing her the opportunity to move on without him. They both know - at this point in the series - that they cannot be together and yet they desperately hang onto each other, which only pains Scully more and more - to the point where the woman loses grip on common sense and makes irrational decisions that put her son's life and Mulder's life in danger.

CUT TO: "The Truth" - ok, so Mulder and Scully are reunited, Mulder knows how much Scully has missed him, he knows (because of Skinner) that Scully gave up their son to adoption - and yet Mulder has the audacity to play Hannibal Lecter to Scully when she first sees him in the military prison cell ("I smelled you coming, Clarice.") - that's inappropriate, disrespectful, and degrading towards her from him - completely uncalled for, yet despite his "love" for her, he chose to creep her out with a sick joke. This is where their "romantic" relationship stands during "The Truth". IIRC he also tells her that what he's dying for is greater than what they have together, that he's not willing to fight for his life so that he can be with her. He's proving to her here that his relationship with her is not the most important thing in his life. This is where their relationship wound up at the end of the series. Sure, they cuddle in bed after Doggett, Skinner and Kersh saved his sorry ass from the death penalty, and they speak of having hope for their future as the series ends, but... but this ending - surprisingly - is much more optimistic for them and their relationship than what we were fed in "I Want To Believe" - six years later...

Since IWTB is TXF series we can't just toss everything that painted the MSR in a bad light in this movie off to just being fanfic fodder as an official movie. What we saw of the Mulder/Scully relationship - six years after "The Truth" - is what TPTB wanted their relationship to turn into. Mulder's obviously still obsessed with UFOs, conspiracies and the paranormal (based on all the clippings wallpapering his man cave), where it seems he spends most of his time. Scully is a doctor now (pediatric neurologist) which indicates that after she and Mulder ran off in "The Truth" she dedicated her time to getting a degree that would allow her to do this kind of work, she seems to take a lot of interest in her child patients - which is an indicator that she spends most of her time at the hospital. Mulder and Scully - though together - live two very different lives now. They are together physically, but I'm not exactly convinced that they are completely in sync emotionally - and IMO a healthy emotional relationship is more important.

Scully tells Mulder that he's not the man she wants him to be, and that he needs to change for her so that she can be more happy (paraphrasing with my interpretation of her words). They've been together since 2000 (appx. May 2000), that's eight years and Scully still wants Mulder to be a man that he is not - this tells me that Scully knows that she's made the wrong decision in being with Mulder, and following him at the end of "The Truth". He doesn't make her happy. She gets upset about a child she's treating at the hospital, and she can't sleep - Mulder's suggestion to help her out... sex. They end up talking about how her feelings about this relate to William, and Mulder ends the conversation by telling Scully that he can curse God for awhile:

SCULLY: Why bring a kid into the world just to make him suffer? I
don't know, Mulder, I've got such a connection to this boy.

MULDER: How old is he?

SCULLY: You think it's because of William.

MULDER: I think our son left us both with an emptiness that can't be
filled. Just go to sleep. Let me curse God for a while.

In IWTB Scully breaks up with Mulder, and soon after this break up Mulder reaffirms to her that her decision for them not to be together is the right decision. He doesn't offer to help her by listening to her, he basically tells her to shut up and go to sleep. He avoids the conversation that she needs to have. Imagine how painful it must be to be Scully in this moment and the man you love, who loves you, just doesn't want to hear about your concerns, what keeps up awake at night - that's got to hurt.

And then... and then at the very end of the movie, Mulder tells Scully that a pedophile can be forgiven by God (and was doing God's work) - he's telling this to a doctor who cares for, treats, and performs surgery on children to save their lives. And he (and we) know how Scully feels about pedophiles based on her behaviour towards Father Joe earlier in the movie when she first met him. It's like Mulder doesn't get her, he should know better than to preach to her that a pedophile can be forgiven for his sins (this is yet another one of those Chris Carter themes that don't paint Carter in a very good light - he's so disgusting). Scully eventually comes to terms with Mulder's way of viewing a pedophile as being forgiven by God, they kiss and make up and Scully again gives into following a life where darkness will always follow her... continuing to be involved with Mulder. She shows at the end of this movie that though she wants to walk away from him, live a normal life, not have that darkness in her life - that she'll give all of that up because Mulder doesn't want her to leave.

Their relationship has plunged so deep into unhappiness since they first hooked up in "all things" to where they end up together in "I Want To Believe". The way that their relationship makes them so unhappy is why I do not support the MSR. There's actually an entire thread that I think explains my position and reasons for not supporting MSR better than what I've typed up here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Now because of the way that Doggett treated Scully in seasons 8 and 9 of TXF, the respect and care he showed for her in a time in her life where she was vulnerable and in a relationship that really didn't have much time to exist. He lives a normal life, he's suffered and moved on, he's allowed himself to fall in love again, and respects her (and her relationship with Mulder) so much that he just stands by and protects her from afar, indicates to me that if things had been different that Doggett and Scully could have found happiness with each other and would have been able to walk out of the darkness together. Might I suggest you guys read Linzee's DSR Manifesto - she explains this perfectly, so very perfectly. Seriously, go read it, it is the best explanation as to why there are fans out there that 'ship Doggett/Scully:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Anyway, I need to go through and read the long posts that were made after my last post in this thread. I'll be back to comment on those a bit later - there's a lot to go through. I just wanted to post this while it was still in my head.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 14:15

Ok, I read through the whole thread now and pulled bits and pieces out of all the posts above and plugged them into one singular reply smile

Aciano wrote:I’m just wondering which parts of the show make you think that aliens, the X-Files etc. would be more important to Mulder than Scully (and William if we’re saying they didn’t give him up). When M&S first met, yes, the X-Files were Mulder’s life. But I think as time went on, Scully became the most important thing to him. The X-Files are burnt down at one point, but he recovers some of them and his life goes on. Then look at him after Scully was abducted. He gets his precious X-Files back, but he’s still depressed and so unlike his normal self until Scully is returned. On the other hand, when he and Scully are taken off the X-Files in early season 6, he’s not happy about it but it’s nothing like the dejected and miserable Mulder we saw after Ascension.

I think Mulder views Scully as a "Samantha" in his life. When Scully was taken in season 2, I think he wasn't viewing it simply as "my friend was taken", I think it was more like "my friend was taken like Samantha was taken from me" - this ties Scully to the X-Files directly in Mulder's perspective - and throughout the run of the series I think Scully was always a "Samantha" to him, and that's why he would ditch her (not wanting to place her in danger), that's why he would do anything he could to make sure she was as safe as he could make her. In season 6 when they are not on the X-Files Scully wasn't out of his life, she was still there, safe. They were still partners professionally even if they weren't (??) properly assigned as partners while on background checks. So of course Mulder wouldn't be miserable in season 6 - Scully was there, and she was safe (remember how Mulder reacted in "Tithonus" when Agent Ritter shot and nearly killed Scully? Yeah... whereas Scully has daddy issues and ties in Mulder to that aspect of her life, Mulder has Samantha issues and ties Scully to that aspect of his life).

gorgclaud wrote:They were "smart" people but in the love game, man, they were dumb!! LOL. I mean, if they were smart, surely they would have acted on that love earlier on? Was it love? Or was it "settling" for Scully and was it Mulder just finding someone who put up with him and didnt double cross him?

If Mulder and Scully had hooked up when the time called for it - in my mind this would have been shortly after "Redux 2" in season 5 after Mulder nearly lost her to cancer - then their relationship wouldn't be a problem for me. I think the writing of the series, characters, and the relationship between Mulder and Scully was better during season 5, and maybe if they hadn't decided to use the 'will they or won't they?' gimmick to keep viewers invested in the series (simply to see if anything would happen between Mulder and Scully) then maybe I could have supported the relationship. Instead, IMO, the MSR and everything after FTF became a gimmick to keep viewers tuning in to see if they'd hook up, or at least gaze at each other. It was a cheap gimmick and ultimately, IMO, destroyed the series, characters, and the relationship Mulder and Scully had.

In terms of the series - as if it were real - I think Scully settled for Mulder because there was no other option in her life because Mulder tore her away from friends and family by dragging her down into his downward spiral of a life, on a quest, his life's quest, to uncover government and alien conspiracies. She was all he had in life in terms of any kind of personal relationship, he can't live without her, he cannot function without her and he told her this in FTF - and she heard him loud and clear. Because she knows that Mulder can't "do this alone" she felt obligated to stay with him through thick and thin, regardless of what she would want to do for herself. This is my view of the MSR and why Scully continues on in a relationship that makes her unhappy.

I don't think though that Mulder fell in love with her because she was someone who put up with him and who did not double cross him. I think he honestly, sincerely fell in love with her and needed her in his life. Perhaps his need to have her with him so that he can remain strong is the driving force behind WHY he fell in love with her in the first place. He's dependent on her, whereas she is not dependent on him.

gorgclaud wrote:But then I love and have always loved (I mean before Doggett came along) the Mulder and Scully-less episodes, such as The Unnatural, Unusual Suspects, Musings, Travellers etc...I knew then that I loved mainly the show and it didnt have to have Mulder and or Scully in it for it to be awesome.

The Mulder and Scully-less episodes of the series are my favorites of the series, hands-down my favorites.


gorgclaud wrote:
Aciano wrote:I actually felt bad for Doggett at times. He’s so nice and caring towards her, but she doesn’t let him in. She runs off without him in Roadrunners, and didn’t even tell him that she was pregnant. In my opinion, you would tell someone that you really trusted that you were going to have a baby.

Well, lets be clear, she certainly wasnt happy about not telling him about the pregnancy. You can see how regretful she is of her secrecy to him in Per Manum and in Via Negativa and even Medusa. She didnt tell him, cause yeah, perhas she didnt fully trust him, but she said its cause she didnt want to be taken of TXF unit. I dont think she knew Doggett well enough at all to tell him such a thing anyways. I dont think it was just about trust.
Also, "Roadrunners" was very early on in their partnership, so early on that Scully was still desperately trying to play "Mulder" to Doggett's "Scully". The fact she didn't tell him about the baby for awhile doesn't bother me, nor the way that I view and 'ship Doggett/Scully. At this point in their partnership Doggett was still working to gain her trust, and he gained that trust quicker than I think Scully imagined. I think as time went on and she kept not telling him about her pregnancy, the more awkward she felt, maybe anxious/nervous, about when to tell him because trust had been gained, and the more time that passed once she trusted him, the more it would look like she didn't trust him once she told him. I think she held it in (making it worse) simply because she didn't want to make him feel untrusted. I agree, Claudine, I don't think her not telling him was simply about trust - it was about not making him feel unwanted or untrusted after the fact she came to trust him. Does that make sense?

gorgclaud wrote:I really think she is and she is very strong. But she wants a man to look after her I think. She wants a man to pay attention to her needs when she has those needs. When she opens up to Mulder he seems to always joke to her or not really get down to her level of upset.

This is what hurts me as a Scully fan. We all know (even Mulder knows) that Scully has a very hard time opening up, and then when she does, Mulder is always cracking a joke and making light of it, not taking it as seriously as Scully wants him to. Whereas Mulder makes jokes when she opens up, Doggett does not (ie: car surveillance scene in "Patience" - where he hears her out, doesn't interrupt her, doesn't crack a joke about her when they talk about how she's trying to approach the case like Mulder would, etc.). This is the kind of male attention that Scully wants. She wants someone who will take her seriously and listen to her and really talk to her, Doggett does this, Mulder does not.

gorgclaud wrote:How do we know she wasnt interested in a relationship with Doggett? Was there really a realistic opportunity for her ? I tend to think she was, I think she looked at him in a certain way. I really do and it aint cause I want to see it.

In the time of seasons 8 and 9, no, Scully did not have a realistic opportunity to pursue any relationship with Doggett - too much was going on in her life. She had her new relationship with Mulder to figure out, she was pregnant, she had a baby - her life was chaos. But that doesn't mean that she didn't show a certain amount of physical attraction to Doggett - I mean... look at all the Lip Gazing and the body language between Doggett and Scully - even early on as in the Hands On Hips scene in "Patience". She was interested in him as a man, and I don't mean as a working partner. She found him attractive, and that can happen to people who are already involved with someone else. Remember back on any relationships you've had/ are in (or if you're married now), do you not find anyone else physically attractive simply because you're involved? No, of course you still get attracted to people of the opposite sex, that's normal.

gorgclaud wrote:I honestly dont think Mulder and Scully deep down suit eachother and their differences do make a lot of issues with me. I think the more they worked together, the more they didnt agree. They got so frustrated with one another being so different. I think that Scully is so like Doggett too, in ways she is not like Mulder.

I agree, I don't feel Mulder and Scully suit each other either. They get along just fine, that's friendship, I'm friends with people who are nearly exact opposite of who I am, and that isn't an issue. I think the very fact that Scully and Doggett are so similar speaks volumes about the potential relationship they could have been in if the circumstances had been right.

gorgclaud wrote:
Aciano wrote:I don’t think anyone would have to be concerned about her happiness.

She didnt look too happy in Three Words when she took Mulder back to his apartment. She didnt look too happy when Mulder is in the office that is no longer is. She didnt look too happy in Alone when Mulder tells Scully to stop searching for Doggett...

she looked really depressed the whole time in IWTB.
I was concerned about Scully's happiness throughout season 8, even after Mulder came back simply because he just wasn't there for her like she needed him to be. They were still together, but in comparison to how they were as a couple in season 7, things changed drastically, and IMO their relationship got even worse by the time we saw them in IWTB.


Aciano wrote:Even after Reyes fully replaces her as Doggett’s partner, she doesn’t mind it nearly as much as she seems to mind merely speaking to Diana.

LOL Perhaps that's because Doggett kept calling up Scully to help him out, and would sometimes even leave Reyes (his partner) in the dark. Just look at "Underneath", Doggett and Scully have already been at work looking up info on the newly released Screwdriver Killer before Reyes even arrived in the office that day - without knowing the first thing about what's going on. It's possible Scully doesn't mind it because she and Doggett have a well-established friendship at this point, and any feelings that Scully could be forming towards Doggett (because let's face it, the woman came to care about him very much) aren't threatened by Reyes being there because unlike Mulder, Doggett is much more stable in his relationships and with his own feelings. Scully knows that Doggett loves her, and knows that he doesn't feel the same towards Reyes so there's no reason for Scully to get jealous of the woman, not like how she got jealous with Diana (because Mulder gave Diana signals that said he is still interested in her/Diana - and Scully saw that - with Doggett and Reyes, Doggett never gave any signals to Reyes to show he had any interest in her beyond her being his FBI partner).


gorgclaud wrote:
Aciano wrote:Unfortunately for MSR shippers like me, most of the developments in their relationship seem to happen off-screen
Really? So for MSR Shippers you are so aware that there was not enough moments to be sure they were together that you have to imagine it all happened off screen? For me as a DSR fan, I just hold on to what I did see.

This is another great point to explain why there are DSR fans... there were MSR fans in season 1 of the series, there were DSR fans in season 8 of the series. Both MSR and DSR had fans before anything every actually happened with either. There were MSR fans before "all things" and "Millennium" and "I Want To Believe". There were DSR fans before Kobold told us that Doggett loves Scully in "Daemonicus". Neither MSR nor DSR fans were shown very much of any development of either relationship that would hint directly at an actual romantic relationship (speaking of the series) before the MSR came to fruition. The relationship we enjoy does not have to actually exist for us to like it, there's UST, and our own personal interpretations of what we read between the lines in the episodes we watch. That's why there were so many MSR fans before Mulder and Scully even became an official couple. There were fans of both MSR and DSR before anything remotely 'romantic' ever happened to either pair.

I think this is one reason why I don't understand why MSR 'shippers don't understand why it's possible that there are fans of the DSR. The MSR 'shippers were the first to 'ship anything on TXF, they saw a romance when one did not exist, yet some of the MSR 'shippers ridicule us and look down on us DSR fans for doing the EXACT SAME THING that they did before Mulder and Scully became a couple. I don't understand why they don't like us so much, or why they don't understand how we can 'ship Doggett and Scully when Mulder/Scully is so "obvious". Is Mulder/Scully so obvious simply because for seven seasons they were the two main characters on the show? Just because they are the initial main characters on the show, to me, does not equate to a romantic relationship between them being the obvious pairing.


gorgclaud wrote:
Aciano wrote:Then in The Truth she runs off with Mulder without a second thought, knowing that she might never see Doggett or Skinner, her friends, again. (Does she even say goodbye?)
Well all of this I have a problem with. Doggett and Reyes were her friends, they helped her when Mulder wasn’t there and the same for Skinner, and to leave them all without a good bye is again, how I think her loyalty to Mulder is unhealthy. She seems hesitant to leave them in that moment…I think it was a really REALLY bad move on Scully’s part and not independent at all.
ITA, this is just another instance of proof that her loyalty to Mulder is unhealthy. The very fact that she ignores people who care for her (friends and family) and doesn't say goodbye or thank them for all they risked to make sure she would have Mulder, is so selfish. She hops in the car with Mulder and leaves. Then when the helicopters come to blow the crap out of those ruins, Doggett is telling them both to get in the car he's driving - Doggett is still willing to risk himself to make sure she's safe (and Mulder's safe) - and she looks at Doggett, hesitates, Mulder decides to go it alone, without Doggett's help, and Scully follows. The look on her face and Doggett's face in that moment says so much to me about how they feel about each other. Scully wants to go with Doggett, but chooses to go with Mulder, and Doggett's heart just breaks when he watches her run off with Mulder to Rohrer's SUV. This is probably the one moment in Scully's life that she thinks back on the most and wonders "what if I had gotten into the car with Doggett, what if..."
gorgclaud wrote:You see, I don’t even think about Mulder and his faults with Scully when I think of how great Doggett and Scully are together. Sure, I can compare and in my mind, Mulder’s ways makes Doggett and Scully even better to me, but take Mulder out of the equation completely and I still think Doggett and Scully suit each other to no end. I still think, without the Mulder factor, Doggett and Scully have sexual chemistry, he loved her and if she opened up, she would have loved him.

I like Doggett/Scully even without taking into consideration the reasons why I don't like Mulder/Scully.

gorgclaud wrote:I think it might be a misunderstanding that DSR fans love DSR cause they think MSR sucked.

I think this is the BIGGEST misunderstanding that MSR fans have of DSR fans. I sometimes feel that some MSR fans just assume this about DSR fans simply because if they paint us in a way that looks like we just 'ship DSR because we think the MSR is bad, that can vilify us to others who love the MSR and don't like the fact there are DSR fans out there. I couldn't care less about the MSR when it comes down to my enjoyment of the DSR - the MSR is there, but I don't need to rip it to shreds just to support my main 'ship. The only time that this even comes into play really is when someone asks me why I prefer DSR over MSR, when that is asked of me then I'll compare the two relationships, but quite honestly my love of the DSR is based on more than just a weak relationship between Mulder and Scully. If Mulder was never involved in Scully's life and Doggett came into her life, I'm 110% positive that they would end up together and not use their career life to get together - they have more in common than being put together because of their careers/work. Mulder's presence in Scully's life in TXF doesn't make any difference to me in reasons why I 'ship Doggett/Scully.

gorgclaud wrote:I just baffles me why MSR lovers like to compare MSR to DSR a lot and I wonder why and I feel its cause it threatens it too much.

ITA Honestly I think if Doggett didn't prove himself to be such a good match for Scully in seasons 8 and 9 that the MSR fans would just accept DSR as nothing important to worry about, like Mulder/Krycek fans or Scully/Reyes fans - both pairings which could have threatened the MSR, but did not - Doggett/Scully is the main pairing that some XF fans support that make the MSR fans scared and wanting to talk about why Doggett/Scully isn't going to happen, wouldn't happen, shouldn't happen, omg-I-can't-believe-people-enjoy/support-it, etc., etc. You never see debates over Mulder/Scully vs. Mulder/Krycek, or Mulder/Scully vs. Skinner/Scully, or Mulder/Scully vs. Mulder/Reyes, or Mulder/Scully vs. Scully/Reyes - all of those pairings take away from the MSR, but they never get criticized or questioned at all by MSR fans and I think that is simply because those other pairings weren't a strong threat to the longevity of the MSR, and I think that MSR fans (whether they admit to it or not) see the potential for Doggett/Scully relationship, and that potential threatens the future of the Mulder/Scully relationship - that is why I think we get more MSR vs. DSR debates in the fandom in the years s8 and s9 were airing, and over ten years after Doggett first came on the show. Some MSR fans are insecure with the MSR because they saw something between Doggett and Scully that scared them.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 15:34

Dana Doggett wrote:A lot of our reflection on the Mulder/Scully relationship is of episodes before they were involved in a romantic relationship together. We're focusing on the years of UST to talk about how much they care for each other, and how they love each other, but we're really not taking a good look at Mulder and Scully after they have become involved with each other.

Yes you are totally right and I didnt even realise this! When they had UST, I think they had chemistry...they were cute together but its when they actually got involved with eachother that I have the main problem with and when analysing their relationship this is the time I look at.

Dana Doggett wrote: we saw that the relationship they started with each other made them happy. Scully laughed more, smiled more, giggled, flirted, and let loose after "all things" when she came to terms with her past that was holding her back, and allowed herself to Mulder and her feelings for him. Mulder wasn't all that different after their relationship began.

Yes, I saw Scully smiling more around that time too but look at Mulder. He didnt seem that different did he. I think of when Scully asks him at the end of season 6 what is there left to look for and he is all depressed and says "My sister". Being with Scully didnt seem to help him at this point. He was still searching for the truth. Even when he finds out what happened to his sister, its still something he wants to do in season 8 and at the end of season 9.

Dana Doggett wrote:
This scene solidifies for me that Mulder had his heart in the right place with his relationship with Scully. He loves her, this is the main scene where I see just how much he loves her after they hooked up. If Mulder had treated her this kindly and with this much care throughout their entire relationship, I may have been sold on it.
Yes, indeed. I loved this scene and I loved that Mulder and if he was gentle and concerned for her like this all the time, and theres no reason why he cant be like that with her all the time, then I would have been very happy for them to be together and see them progress in this caring way.

Dana Doggett wrote:
His words sound like he's trying to tell her to leave it all behind, to move on, and without saying it - they both know - that his choice of lifestyle is NOT the lifestyle that either of them want Scully to be living.
and she doesnt deny it either. She doesnt tell him he is wrong. In fact she is tearful, as if she knows he is right and perhaps needs to leave him or his quest to get on and have the life she actually wanted.


Dana Doggett wrote:

...then miraculously Mulder is dug up from six feet under after only three months of decay and decomposition of his body - and you know he was autopsied simply because his death was under suspicious circumstances, he had been missing - so the FBI would want an autopsy of one of their own to help answer questions. He had vital organs removed, etc., etc. So anyway, he's back miraculously to fulfill Duchovny's contract for season 8 - and then we get to see the Mulder/Scully relationship after all this time has passed (a total of six months IIRC - that's ignoring the timeline ignorance of the writers of most of the s8 episodes up until he came back from the dead).

Oh man, crackup when you put it like that, it sucks even worse than when you watch it!! LOL.

Dana Doggett wrote:
There's a new agent in the X-Files office. Scully is defending Doggett to Mulder and standing up for him - Scully is pregnant. Mulder shows his jealousy over Doggett by shoving him into a chair in Skinner's office, he doubts the parentage of Scully's unborn child, it's possible he suspects that somehow Doggett is the father (therefore his non-FBI/XF related jealousy towards Doggett).

Well to me, the fact he is unsure as to who is the father, then that makes their relationship even more unstable.

Dana Doggett wrote:

Mulder comes to in the hospital and knowing how much Scully has missed him he says "Who are you?" to Scully - what kind of man, who loves the woman crying over his life being miraculously saved - does that? Yes, Mulder is a joker, but you would think he'd know the appropriate time and place for cracking a joke.


Lordy, there was a time when Mulder's dry wit was good and fun and in place, most of the time when he was trying to seem laid back about the extreme things he was experiencing on The X Files unit, but when he constantly jokes to Scully, it really gets on my nerves. I know some men like to ease the situation with a bit of humour, but like you said, it seems Scully has trouble in opening up and when she does, Mulder makes it harder by joking.

The same as that DeadAlive moment is when he greets her for the 1st time in The Truth, after she has had his baby, brought it up alone, (not sure if Skinner had told him at that point that she gave the baby up) and been without him for so long and the 1st thing he does is do a really horrible scary joke to her. She doesnt like. I hate it.

He does the same in IWTB when they are in bed and she is upset about the boy she is looking after and tells her to stop worrying, he will curse God for her. "I think our son left us both with an emptiness that can't be filled. Just go to sleep. Let me curse God for a while." So when they start talking about William and this child Scully has a problem with trying to save, he just ends the conversation for her.

DanaDoggett wrote:
Mulder is released from the hospital and has a very, very pregnant Scully carry his overnight bags for him. This is all after we are told that Mulder is in perfect health, so there's absolutely no reason for Mulder NOT to carry his bags, but he decided to allow Scully to do it for him. His comments, his behaviour, and his focus on himself and where he stands in their world are his main concerns. Scully stands by trying to express to Mulder how happy she is that he's back, at least Mulder acknowledges he's coming off cold and ungrateful.
Its a horrible scene from beginning to end and I cant imagine why they chose to write them this way. This just makes me hate MSR and the idea of it and the actual existence of it.

Dana Doggett wrote:
The happiness (laughing, giggling, smiling, flirting, sincere smiles) that Scully showed in season 7 after she and Mulder first hooked up are gone, non-existent in season 8 (season 9, and IWTB). She forces smiles, they no longer seem sincere, she is exhausted emotionally and Mulder isn't doing very much to make her feel better. Instead he's being a jerk about her partner (Doggett) and not trusting her when she defends Doggett, he doubts her - which is understandable Mulder lives by the motto "trust no one", but still he should at least lend an ear to what Scully has to say about Doggett. If Scully trusts him and says so, Mulder (the Mulder I love) would trust her, but he doesn't.
Yes, sure Trust No One was how it was early on...but if Scully trusted Doggett and Doggett proved to be a good guy, then I just dont see why Mulder had to be so rude and hateful of Doggett. In my view, it was rude to Scully for him to be rude to Doggett like that.

Dana Doggett wrote:
she without him, Mulder's abduction and miraculous healing *coughs* he's a Super Soldier *coughs*,
crackup

Dana Doggett wrote:

Season 9 - Mulder leaves the very weekend that baby William was born. He barely sticks around to get to know his son, or to help Scully out with a newborn. Yes, we find out that Scully was the one that convinced Mulder to leave, but if he really wanted to do everything he could to be with the one he's supposed to be in love with so much (and to protect his newborn child from the dangers that obviously surround his new life), Mulder would have made Scully and William go with him. Fact is... he didn't. We can't look at this as "well Gillian was contracted for the season and David wasn't so that's why Mulder didn't have Scully go with him", because real life issues aren't the fictional reasons for what is going on in the story of TXF. Mulder made his ultimate ditch on Scully by leaving her alone with a newborn child, and Scully told him to leave.

I think its painfully obvious the reasons why Mulder wasnt there, cause too much was revealed about the Behind The Scenes of DD and the show, but imagine if we didnt know anything about the contract or DD's displeasure of staying on the show and this storyline is still solid and still a valid thing to analyse. Why does Carter write this for Mulder and Scully. Come on. Theres no reason why Mulder has to go into hiding all of a sudden. His life has always been in danger. Even if Mulder did think he should go and try and be safe, even if Scully insisted, doesnt mean he is gonna just go. I think Mulder would be more concerned into trying to take care of Scully and the baby, than just himself. Well, a nice Mulder would be. Surely if Mulder's life is in danger, then so is Scully's and William's.

I really cant understand why Carter only came up with this horrible reason for Mulder's absence in S9. And with this and IWTB, is Carter trying to sabotage his Ship? Maybe he really didnt want them to get involved? Maybe he had too much pressure on him?

Dana Doggett wrote:
Her dependence on Mulder turns her into another version of the WeepyScully that we got in season 8 - only this time it's worse because we can't exactly blame the weepy mess on pregnancy hormones, this is all because she's turned into a sappy woman who can't "survive" without her man. In my opinion, this is 'ShipperScully - what Carter made Scully in the last two seasons in order to - IMO - "keep the MSR alive".
In the harshest way, this is all I can see too.

Dana Doggett wrote:
CUT TO: "The Truth" - ok, so Mulder and Scully are reunited, Mulder knows how much Scully has missed him, he knows (because of Skinner) that Scully gave up their son to adoption - and yet Mulder has the audacity to play Hannibal Lecter to Scully when she first sees him in the military prison cell ("I smelled you coming, Clarice.") - that's inappropriate, disrespectful, and degrading towards her from him - completely uncalled for, yet despite his "love" for her, he chose to creep her out with a sick joke. This is where their "romantic" relationship stands during
Oh man, I didnt read this before I wrote what I said about this above. wallbash I hate this so much.

Dana Doggett wrote:
"The Truth". IIRC he also tells her that what he's dying for is greater than what they have together, that he's not willing to fight for his life so that he can be with her. He's proving to her here that his relationship with her is not the most important thing in his life. This is where their relationship wound up at the end of the series.

Man, I can barely manage the Truth even with a glass of wine, so I forgot about this as I havent seen it "enough" but thats what I remember about him fighting a losing battle in the court room. That was more important to him than he and Scully as a couple.


Dana Doggett wrote: Mulder's obviously still obsessed with UFOs, conspiracies and the paranormal (based on all the clippings wallpapering his man cave), where it seems he spends most of his time. Scully is a doctor now (pediatric neurologist) which indicates that after she and Mulder ran off in "The Truth" she dedicated her time to getting a degree that would allow her to do this kind of work, she seems to take a lot of interest in her child patients - which is an indicator that she spends most of her time at the hospital. Mulder and Scully - though together - live two very different lives now. They are together physically, but I'm not exactly convinced that they are completely in sync emotionally - and IMO a healthy emotional relationship is more important.

Lets not forget, Mulder is jobless and beardy She goes out to work all day, comes home to a home that is in a mess and he doesnt even greet her with a kiss. He calls her "doc" and doesnt even turn to look at her. He seems to stay in his "office" he created in their home...a room that is a reflection of his office in the FBI...and doesnt seem to do anything but look into paranormal things.

I tell ya, if we cut to them in IWTB and they live even a cheesy life like we saw them living in Arcadia, I would be much happier than what we were given. Its so depressing, its unbelieveable.

Does Mulder fight for her, like he did in the hallway scene in FTF, when she tells him that she wont come home to him anymore in IWTB if he carries on with the case? No. Sure, it was a bit of tiff and you dont always do the right thing, but he doesnt fight for her at all. He says Good luck then and walks away. He wont give up his obsession for her and all this is clear earlier on, the signs were there that thats what he is like.

It seems time has passed and she still isnt with him...he still doesnt fight for her. He is still sitting in his room cutting out newspaper articles...defending a man whom should not be defending and doesnt ask how she is at all.



Dana Doggett wrote:
And then... and then at the very end of the movie, Mulder tells Scully that a pedophile can be forgiven by God (and was doing God's work) - he's telling this to a doctor who cares for, treats, and performs surgery on children to save their lives. And he (and we) know how Scully feels about pedophiles based on her behaviour towards Father Joe earlier in the movie when she first met him. It's like Mulder doesn't get her, he should know better than to preach to her that a pedophile can be forgiven for his sins. Scully eventually comes to terms with Mulder's way of viewing a pedophile as being forgiven by God, they kiss and make up and Scully again gives into following a life where darkness will always follow her... continuing to be involved with Mulder. She shows at the end of this movie that though she wants to walk away from him, live a normal life, not have that darkness in her life - that she'll give all of that up because Mulder doesn't want her to leave.

Seriously...Im glad you see this as I do. Its utterly depressing. She was willing to leave. She was the one that told him she wasnt coming home. She still came to him, and he still didnt fight for her. She still walked out of the house again. The only thing that suggests to us that they are still together is the added bit in the credits with them strangely on a boat together. Random.

Dana Doggett wrote:
The way that their relationship makes them so unhappy is why I do not support the MSR. There's actually an entire thread that I think explains my position and reasons for not supporting MSR better than what I've typed up here:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think as this might look like a taking sides thing or might look like an ambush, we do have the appropriate threads where we talk about our feelings on this without it being about attacking the ones who defend and support it.


Dana Doggett wrote:
Now because of the way that Doggett treated Scully in seasons 8 and 9 of TXF, the respect and care he showed for her in a time in her life where she was vulnerable and in a relationship that really didn't have much time to exist. ......he just stands by and protects her from afar, indicates to me that if things had been different that Doggett and Scully could have found happiness with each other and would have been able to walk out of the darkness together. Might I suggest you guys read Linzee's DSR Manifesto - she explains this perfectly, so very perfectly. Seriously, go read it, it is the best explanation as to why there are fans out there that 'ship Doggett/Scully:


DSR just sounds so simple and easy especially when you talk about how depressing MSR is.

I was thinking, it might be an age thing but Im not entirely sure. I mean, someone suggested to me recently that when I saw Doggett and then automatically got into DSR 10 years ago, it was when i was more mature, more realistic, more secure emotionally and had more experience with men and life. When I enjoyed MSR, I was a teenager. The older I got, the more it didnt appeal to me. I wonder if this is a factor. It might be with me but not with others. I know a lot of MSR fans who arent just teenagers. But its worth considering. Doggett is a more mature man too and his ways with Scully is again, mature. So I wonder if you have to be a certain age to appreciate this.



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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by gorgclaud on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 15:58

Dana Doggett wrote: I think as time went on and she kept not telling him about her pregnancy, the more awkward she felt, maybe anxious/nervous, about when to tell him because trust had been gained, and the more time that passed once she trusted him, the more it would look like she didn't trust him once she told him. I think she held it in (making it worse) simply because she didn't want to make him feel untrusted. I agree, Claudine, I don't think her not telling him was simply about trust - it was about not making him feel unwanted or untrusted after the fact she came to trust him. Does that make sense?

Yes I see what you mean. Thats what I meant before when I said she was just sticking to what she decided to do originally before she trusted him.

Dana Doggett wrote:

She found him attractive, and that can happen to people who are already involved with someone else. Remember back on any relationships you've had/ are in (or if you're married now), do you not find anyone else physically attractive simply because you're involved? No, of course you still get attracted to people of the opposite sex, that's normal.

I agree with this completely. I still find other men attractive even though I am happily married.

Dana Doggett wrote: Scully doesn't mind it because she and Doggett have a well-established friendship at this point, and any feelings that Scully could be forming towards Doggett (because let's face it, the woman came to care about him very much) aren't threatened by Reyes being there because unlike Mulder, Doggett is much more stable in his relationships and with his own feelings. Scully knows that Doggett loves her, and knows that he doesn't feel the same towards Reyes so there's no reason for Scully to get jealous of the woman, not like how she got jealous with Diana (because Mulder gave Diana signals that said he is still interested in her/Diana - and Scully saw that - with Doggett and Reyes, Doggett never gave any signals to Reyes to show he had any interest in her beyond her being his FBI partner).

You see, I just dont think about Reyes at all when it comes to DSR. Theres a huge difference to why and how Scully got jealous of Fowley - like you said Mulder was holding her hand. She didnt like that obviously. Not only that but Diana was a believer in a way that Scully wasnt and she found out she had a history with Mulder. Reyes was very different to Doggett and when he was around her Scully could see that Reyes irritated Doggett a lot. She manages to calm Doggett down, whilst Reyes annoyed Doggett every time she opened her mouth. And I also think that Scully was not threatened by Doggett and the possibility of Reyes cause she did know how much Doggett cared for her. It was too obvious. With Mulder, as I said, he never made anything clear in his words or actions on how much he cared for her. At least not enough or the right way in my mind to be satisfactory to not get jealous. Thats what I mean about her feeling insecure with Mulder.


Dana Doggett wrote:
This is another great point to explain why there are DSR fans... there were MSR fans in season 1 of the series, there were DSR fans in season 8 of the series. Both MSR and DSR had fans before anything every actually happened with either. There were MSR fans before "all things" and "Millennium" and "I Want To Believe". There were DSR fans before Kobold told us that Doggett loves Scully in "Daemonicus". Neither MSR nor DSR fans were shown very much of any development of either relationship that would hint directly at an actual romantic relationship (speaking of the series) before the MSR came to fruition.
Totally never realised this. Exactly right though.
But when I said I find it strange that MSR fans have to read between the lines even now, its cause a lot did happen between them, that they dont appear to be satisfied. And I love DSR when nothing happened between them. I love them when they are together and I love the IDEA of them and support the possibility of them. But I dont make up anything in off-screen for me to be satisfied with DSR.


Dana Doggett wrote: I don't understand why they don't like us so much, or why they don't understand how we can 'ship Doggett and Scully when Mulder/Scully is so "obvious".
You see, I always wonder if its cause MSR fans feel threatened but even so, I still dont understand the dislike of DSR fans. I really dont. I feel like DSR is really obvious!



Dana Doggett wrote:
and she looks at Doggett, hesitates, Mulder decides to go it alone, without Doggett's help, and Scully follows. The look on her face and Doggett's face in that moment says so much to me about how they feel about each other. Scully wants to go with Doggett, but chooses to go with Mulder, and Doggett's heart just breaks when he watches her run off with Mulder to Rohrer's SUV.



Slow mo this moment and you can see it all. I have done it in my vids to show this. And when she goes off in the car with Mulder before this when Kersh, Gibson, Reyes, Skinner and Doggett are standing there, Doggett has already turned around to watch Scully walking away and then Mulder walks away. Doggett is still focused on Scully and its that that bothers him.

Its her whom he looks at when Mulder tells him to go at the end of The Truth.

Dana Doggett wrote: I couldn't care less about the MSR when it comes down to my enjoyment of the DSR - the MSR is there, but I don't need to rip it to shreds just to support my main 'ship. The only time that this even comes into play really is when someone asks me why I prefer DSR over MSR, when that is asked of me then I'll compare the two relationships,

This is funny isnt it. There are times I do compare them off my own back, though not in this detail, but thats only cause its a given, cause we all know she IS with Mulder and so thats why we would compare them. But yes, so many ASK me why this why that and need it explained in the simplest ways. I dont really understand why they want it explained all the time.


Dana Doggett wrote:

I think if Doggett didn't prove himself to be such a good match for Scully in seasons 8 and 9 that the MSR fans would just accept DSR as nothing important to worry about, like Mulder/Krycek fans or Scully/Reyes fans - both pairings which could have threatened the MSR, but did not - Doggett/Scully is the main pairing that some XF fans support that make the MSR fans scared and wanting to talk about why Doggett/Scully isn't going to happen, wouldn't happen, shouldn't happen, omg-I-can't-believe-people-enjoy/support-it, etc., etc.

You never see debates over Mulder/Scully vs. Mulder/Krycek, or Mulder/Scully vs. Skinner/Scully, or Mulder/Scully vs. Mulder/Reyes, or Mulder/Scully vs. Scully/Reyes - all of those pairings take away from the MSR, but they never get criticized or questioned at all by MSR fans and I think that is simply because those other pairings weren't a strong threat to the longevity of the MSR, and I think that MSR fans (whether they admit to it or not) see the potential for Doggett/Scully relationship, and that potential threatens the future of the Mulder/Scully relationship - that is why I think we get more MSR vs. DSR debates in the fandom in the years s8 and s9 were airing, and over ten years after Doggett first came on the show. Some MSR fans are insecure with the MSR because they saw something between Doggett and Scully that scared them.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Its completely true you never see any MSR fan comparing MSR to any other possibility of Mulder with another or Scully with another. Its always DSR and there has to be a really painful reason for that.

It musta really scared them cause its so obvious. It was written, it was directed and acted that way to exist. No one made it up.

I didnt think I would want Scully realisticly with another man other than Mulder before Doggett came along, but Im sorry, I saw Doggett, his care and his chemistry with Scully just made me see just her with him. Mulder, the man I really loved as a character once, became small, annoying and a very isolated man. He became that to me before I saw Doggett but I think seeing Doggett against him like that made all those things more highlighted. I would say I think Mulder suits someone else completely different, but i wont get into that here.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Aciano on Tue 26 Jul 2011, 21:08

I want to start off by saying that I don’t have time to answer every point that you guys make. I don’t want this to sound rude like “I don’t have time for you” or anything, but I am a poor collage student who has to go out and earn some money once in a while. tongue

So, as awesome as you guys have been and as much as I wish I could sit at my computer all day, I can’t. But if you have something specific that you think I’m ignoring or that you would especially like me to respond to, mention it when you are talking about it and I’ll make sure to include that in my next post! smile

I've read through everything like Dana Doggett did and compiled a somewhat organized post. Hopefully everything makes sense and I didn't confuse who posted what or what I'm responding to.



gorgclaud wrote:
We weren’t given any clear scene of them together properly or romantically. Its just detached and vague and i think that was done on purpose to not have them together but have the Shippers hold on for hope and ultimately tune in all the time. Carter relied on the assumption that the only fans left at that point in season 7, 8 or 9 were Shippers. But he was quite wrong to assume that.
I’m not sure what you mean by a “clear scene of them together properly or romantically”. For me, the cuddling in bed in Requiem was conformation to me that they were more than friends. Who knows what really happened with that baby, but it’s pretty clear that their relationship isn’t platonic anymore when you see that part.

First of all, Scully isn’t feeling well and what does she do? Go over to Mulder’s in the middle of the night. She doesn’t want a doctor, she came over to get some TLC. Just the fact that she feels comfortable enough to do this speaks volumes to me. Scully obviously has a hard time opening up to people, but here she is completely open with the idea of going to snuggle with Mulder when she’s not feeling well. And Mulder’s first reaction is to climb in bed and cuddle with her. Neither of them seem surprised by this, which tells me that they’ve taken their relationship to the next level. I have plenty of close guy friends who I love like brothers, but I would never spoon with any of them. tongue

gorgclaud wrote:
Really? So for MSR Shippers you are so aware that there was not enough moments to be sure they were together that you have to imagine it all happened off screen? For me as a DSR fan, I just hold on to what I did see.
No, I think you misunderstood what I meant by that. I am completely happy with what we got on screen. But it’s still fun to imagine what happened off-screen, don’t you agree? Mulder and Scully could have made mushy speeches and gotten married and run off to the suburbs to raise their 3 kids and a dog. And I’d still be imagining what went on during the times we didn’t see them. That’s why I got into reading fanfiction, its fun to think about what happens while they’re not chasing monsters and aliens.

gorgclaud wrote:
If Scully hadn’t met Mulder in her life, I betcha Doggett would have been Scully's husband. No messing around.
Agree 100%. That is the only way, I believe, Scully and Doggett would have gotten together. If Mulder was completely and utterly out of the picture.

gorgclaud wrote:
You know something I will always remember reading was a small article about the show, when it was airing its 1st year in the UK. I loved the show, loved the stories, it had me on the edge of my seat. And in the article it mentioned all of those great things about it and then added "the UST between Mulder and Scully is fun too" or something like that. I can safely remember thinking "oh yeah, I guess they do have some sort of unresolved sexual tension...that is fun." But never really thought about it before. I guess thats cause it just wasn’t something I TRULY saw within them when they were together or perhaps they didn’t really set my fire alight. It then became something that was PLANTED in my mind to look out for.
This is really interesting for me because my experience was the complete opposite. Once I decided I was going to watch X-Files, I made the choice not to look at anything X-Files related online so it would be as if I was watching it live. I focused solely on the aliens/monsters/whatever until I first noticed the UST between Mulder and Scully in Ice, and I was pretty much instantly on board with them. I then watched until Roadrunners, got bored and proceeded to go online and read every spoiler I could find in order to figure out when Mulder would be back. It was then that I found about DSR. I’ll admit I was surprised because the idea had not even occurred to me that Scully and Doggett would/could be more than friends. So I guess that’s why I don’t ship them, just like you don’t ship MSR. We didn’t discover them ourselves. They were told to us by someone/something else and only then did we start seeing it.

gorgclaud wrote:
As I said, I see Scully with Skinner and Pendrell too and I see them having a more loving relationship than she did at any time with Mulder.
It’s possible that she could have had a loving relationship with either of these men, but it’s purely speculation. I could say I feel that she and Mulder did have a loving relationship, that they shared every secret and feeling with each other off-screen and that they acted distant while at work in an attempt to keep their relationship a secret. But I have nothing to back this up, so it’s ridiculous.

gorgclaud wrote:
I just wonder why MSR v DSR is an issue. Do you feel threatened by DSR? Does the idea of Doggett and Scully as a real possibility upset the MSR ship that much? … Why does it need to be defended against DSR?
I just want it to be clear that I never felt threatened by DSR, and that’s not the reason I started this thread. If you want the truth, I watched LOST for 6 years before X-Files and loved the online community. If you’ve never seen the show, first of all you should because it’s an amazing show, and second of all there’s a major love triangle (which eventually turned into a love quadrangle, but I’ll spare you the problems with that!). Many fans had organized themselves into 2 groups: the “Jaters” (Jack/Kate) and the “Skaters” (Sawyer/Kate). I was a Jater so for years, after each episode, we would all get online and discuss what happened and bicker over who loved who and what that touch meant and blah blah blah. And I got so used to debating with other people that it was a habit, and it was fun. We all knew each other and would tease and bicker, without too many serious arguments.

Anyways, in X-Files it was never that obvious. And, after all that time of always having someone to supply the other side of the story, agreeing with everyone seems boring to me. The reason this thread isn’t “MSR and Mulder/Krycek” or “MSR and Scully/Reyes” or whatever is because DSR IS the most logical choice when it comes to an opponent for MSR. I never felt threatened, but if I was to pick the one that was most likely to happen, it would be DSR no doubt. I never got the feeling that Mulder or Scully were interested in people of the same gender (sorry luv2luv! tongue ) so that’s out. Mulder and Reyes didn’t spend that much time together, and no one seems as interested in Scully/Skinner as they do in DSR. That’s the complete truth on what went through my head before starting this thread.

gorgclaud wrote:
It musta really scared them cause its so obvious. It was written, it was directed and acted that way to exist. No one made it up.
I know that shippers of any kind, MSR included, have a tendency to see what they want to see, but I don’t think this is the case all the time. There was a show in between seasons 5 and 6 called Inside the X-Files where Chris Carter literally said (and I’m not paraphrasing) “Scully loves Mulder and Mulder loves Scully. It’s a wonderful romance.” I don’t know how more obvious than that you can get.

Dana Doggett wrote:Mulder comes to in the hospital and knowing how much Scully has missed him he says "Who are you?" to Scully - what kind of man, who loves the woman crying over his life being miraculously saved - does that? Yes, Mulder is a joker, but you would think he'd know the appropriate time and place for cracking a joke.
This is the same kind of thing as in Vienen (tell the kid I went down swinging) and The Truth (I smelled you come in, Clarice). These might not be the perfect time for a joke, but I think it’s just Mulder’s way of diffusing a tough situation. And, to be honest, I never thought any of these bothered Scully much at all, beyond a slight and brief annoyance. In fact, in Deadalive and The Truth, she seems so happy that he’s back/alive that a little bad joke seems pretty harmless. And in Deadalive, it actually helps assure her that it really is Mulder and not some alien like Billy Miles. So I never understood the big problem with these.

Dana Doggett wrote:Mulder is released from the hospital and has a very, very pregnant Scully carry his overnight bags for him. This is all after we are told that Mulder is in perfect health, so there's absolutely no reason for Mulder NOT to carry his bags, but he decided to allow Scully to do it for him. His comments, his behaviour, and his focus on himself and where he stands in their world are his main concerns. Scully stands by trying to express to Mulder how happy she is that he's back, at least Mulder acknowledges he's coming off cold and ungrateful.
This is one of my least favorite scenes ever as far as MSR goes, maybe THE least favorite. This whole episode, Mulder is an ass. There’s just no other way to say it. But I think it’s wrong to say he was this way the entire rest of the series. By the next episode, they’re joking around again, he’s giving her gifts and he’s feeling the baby.

Here’s my theory. And this might be way off and just my shipper brain thinking so bare with me. I think that, during Three Words, Mulder was struggling with the fact that he has returned to a completely different world. Like you said, Scully was now pregnant and he doesn’t know how that happened and she’s got a new partner. I think he just needed time to adjust to all of this. So, by Empedocles, they’re smiling and joking around again. And then there is the fact that viewers would find Mulder and Scully getting married and moving to the suburbs incredibly boring. So, just as all TV shows do, they create situations that cause tension, stress and overall problems for their main characters. It's the same thing they did with Scully and Doggett by having her not tell him that she was pregnant.

Dana Doggett wrote:Might I suggest you guys read Linzee's DSR Manifesto - she explains this perfectly, so very perfectly. Seriously, go read it, it is the best explanation as to why there are fans out there that 'ship Doggett/Scully:
I did read it. It was interesting. I don’t agree with everything she said, but I respect her (and your) opinion. And I do understand why you ship Doggett/Scully.

Dana Doggett wrote:She was interested in him as a man, and I don't mean as a working partner. She found him attractive, and that can happen to people who are already involved with someone else. Remember back on any relationships you've had/ are in (or if you're married now), do you not find anyone else physically attractive simply because you're involved? No, of course you still get attracted to people of the opposite sex, that's normal.
I agree that it’s completely normal to be attracted to other men, and she might have been attracted to Doggett. But M&S are the married couple in this situation, and Doggett is the single person who Scully is attracted to. I'm not married but I'm sure that I'm not going to become an angel once I do, and never look at another man in my life. So Scully can be "with" Mulder, find Doggett attractive but decide not to act on it and to stay with Mulder. I think we all agree on this.

Annnnd finally, if you’ve read through all this and still wanna read some more: My thoughts on IWTB. I think you both know (as does anyone whose read through this thread) that I hate this movie and I think Mulder and Scully both acted like jerks and were unhappy in it. BUT I never thought that it had been that way for the whole 6 years, or even a few months. I always thought that it was a temporary downturn in their relationship, and that they returned to their usual selves after the movie in the boat scene. There, they seem happy and more like the Mulder and Scully from the TV show.

I know this is purely speculation, but there’s not much more we can do because Carter didn’t give us a single clue on what happened during those 6 years. What I do know is that Mulder and Scully are both smart people and I refuse to believe that either one would continue suffering in a failing relationship for 6 years. That’s just my take on things.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 10:50

gorgclaud wrote:Yes, I saw Scully smiling more around that time too but look at Mulder. He didnt seem that different did he. I think of when Scully asks him at the end of season 6 what is there left to look for and he is all depressed and says "My sister". Being with Scully didnt seem to help him at this point. He was still searching for the truth. Even when he finds out what happened to his sister, its still something he wants to do in season 8 and at the end of season 9.

I agree, I don't think Mulder behaved very differently once he got romantically involved with Scully (side note: I have a problem saying "romantically involved with" when it pertains to Mulder and Scully because neither one of them every showed any type of romantic behaviour towards the other). No matter what Mulder is always going to be searching for the truth/his sister. He is haunted by her disappearance, and finding out she turned into starlight for sure wasn't a satisfactory answer to his life long quest to find out what happened to her. In seasons 8 and 9 - after Mulder's abduction and also after the birth of Scully's child, he is still out there looking for the truth. He can't let it go, he won't. Even in IWTB the only reason why he got up out of his chair in his man cave after Scully asked him to speak with the FBI was because he saw the photograph of Samantha that was taped to the back of his man cave's door. He didn't go out to help find the missing FBI agent because Scully asked him, he did it because of Samantha. Samantha is Mulder's driving force for everything he does, she always will be.

gorgclaud wrote:
Dana Doggett wrote:His words sound like he's trying to tell her to leave it all behind, to move on, and without saying it - they both know - that his choice of lifestyle is NOT the lifestyle that either of them want Scully to be living.
and she doesnt deny it either. She doesnt tell him he is wrong. In fact she is tearful, as if she knows he is right and perhaps needs to leave him or his quest to get on and have the life she actually wanted.

Yes, this is my point. Both Mulder and Scully - even after being together for at least a month (by "Requiem") - know that what they have together in a relationship is not lasting and contradicts everything that Mulder wants to do with his life, and everything that Scully wants to do with her life. Mulder wants to continue searching for truths, Scully doesn't want to do this for the rest of her life. Scully wants a normal life away from the FBI, she wants to settle down - Mulder doesn't want this kind of life. They both want very different things despite being in love with each other and I think that fact tears them both up inside - especially Scully because it took her so long to fall in love with him and then to open up to him about that. The fact they both have very different ideas of what their future will be is the reason why they shouldn't be together, and why they are both miserable in IWTB. They are forcing themselves to stay together when they shouldn't be. That's a very sad situation.


gorgclaud wrote:Well to me, the fact he is unsure as to who is the father, then that makes their relationship even more unstable.

True. I mean before he was abducted the donation he made for Scully's in vitro failed. She's a barren woman, no amount of sperm will penetrate an egg if there are none to be penetrated. Perhaps Mulder thinks that Scully asked her new partner to be a donor in the hopes that the in vitro wouldn't fail a second time around. Fact is that her pregnancy is suspicious and always will be. I don't care how many times Mulder or Scully says "our child" or "our son" or "our baby", that thing is not a result of them having sex, it's a result of something else (even Knowle Rohrer says that the chip in her neck made her pregnancy possible - this tells us directly that the child was not conceived in a normal way) <---- sorry, that's a whole other topic.

But yes, the fact that Mulder isn't sure that he's the father tells us that the relationship he had/has with Scully before/after his abduction is not stable at all. And the fact that Scully doesn't tell him that he is the father just solidifies that fact.

gorgclaud wrote:it seems Scully has trouble in opening up and when she does, Mulder makes it harder by joking.

The same as that DeadAlive moment is when he greets her for the 1st time in The Truth, after she has had his baby, brought it up alone, (not sure if Skinner had told him at that point that she gave the baby up) and been without him for so long and the 1st thing he does is do a really horrible scary joke to her. She doesnt like. I hate it.

He does the same in IWTB when they are in bed and she is upset about the boy she is looking after and tells her to stop worrying, he will curse God for her. "I think our son left us both with an emptiness that can't be filled. Just go to sleep. Let me curse God for a while." So when they start talking about William and this child Scully has a problem with trying to save, he just ends the conversation for her.

Getting back to comparing DSR with MSR - you know that John Doggett would not do this to Scully if he were involved with her(he barely showed any sign of having dry humor and using it in the way that Mulder does). John would listen to what she had to say, offer his thoughts and then hear her thoughts in reaction to his own. He wouldn't shrug off topics that keep her from sleeping at night and suggest sex to ease her to sleep, he would listen to her. He did that as her partner and if they were romantically involved I imagine he would respect her just the same.

This is one of the main things in IWTB that annoyed the crap out of me. I knew going in that Mulder and Scully would be involved, that was a given, but to see them like this, to see that even after six years of living together Mulder still hadn't grown up enough to behave like an adult, a caring/loving adult, with Scully... that just infuriates me. Scully deserves so much better than what she has with Mulder. I feel sorry for her when I think of what her life has become in IWTB. The poor thing.

gorgclaud wrote:Surely if Mulder's life is in danger, then so is Scully's and William's.

I really cant understand why Carter only came up with this horrible reason for Mulder's absence in S9. And with this and IWTB, is Carter trying to sabotage his Ship? Maybe he really didnt want them to get involved? Maybe he had too much pressure on him?

Exactly, I mean who were the alien Super Soldiers watching while baby William was born? They weren't keeping an eye on Mulder, that's for sure, they were there watching Scully give birth to their leader. I forget which episode exactly this was said in - or if it was said by Rohrer or McMahon - but someone told Scully that she was used to create a natural-born Super Soldier and to raise him and take care of him for the Project. This could be in the season 9 premiere episodes, but I'm not for certain on that because I don't like watching season 9. But this fact here proves that Scully and William are in as much, if not more, danger than Mulder - yet it is Mulder who runs off. Now I know that Scully told him to run off, but you'd think that after she is told this that she'd want to run off and join Mulder too, but she doesn't. Then we see her desperately hanging onto that "normal life" that she wants to live by staying in Virginia, keeping her child, ignoring (at first) the fact that he isn't normal, etc., etc. I mean, this here shows that she so desperately wants a normal life that she's willing to risk herself and her newborn son in the process of doing so.

Getting back to what I'm quoting up there, I like to think that Carter is purposely sabotaging the Mulder/Scully relationship. What other reason for all the unhappiness and misery that this relationship has brought to the characters is there? Why show a relationship deteriorate if you aren't purposely deciding to write it this way? Why show how miserable the two are together if you do not intend to show that their relationship is inevitably going to end? There's no reason to show it this way other than to prove that it is not a good relationship for the characters. JMHO.

gorgclaud wrote:Man, I can barely manage the Truth even with a glass of wine, so I forgot about this as I havent seen it "enough" but thats what I remember about him fighting a losing battle in the court room. That was more important to him than he and Scully as a couple.

I only remember it because a few months ago I watched it to play "Spot Alan Dale" and then again about a week or two later I watched it to end the SoX Season 9 Rewatch - otherwise I would have never remembered this. But yeah, that's the point, right here in this episode Mulder tells us that the truth - his quest - is more important to him than his relationship with Scully. So people can't tell us that he puts his relationship with Scully above everything else in his life, because that's just a lie - in "The Truth" we get the facts from Mulder himself - he cares more about the truth than he does his relationship. I know that he keeps this truth from Scully to protect her, and that's just him caring for her, but that is not him caring about their relationship. Note the difference.

gorgclaud wrote:Lets not forget, Mulder is jobless and beardy She goes out to work all day, comes home to a home that is in a mess and he doesnt even greet her with a kiss. He calls her "doc" and doesnt even turn to look at her. He seems to stay in his "office" he created in their home...a room that is a reflection of his office in the FBI...and doesnt seem to do anything but look into paranormal things.

That's just the way Mulder is. This is how their life is together. He's obviously more caught up in whatever it is he's doing in his man cave (aka the XF office replacement) than giving Scully the time of day when she comes home after a shift at the hospital. Wasn't there a bottle of vodka on a table in the living room area just outside his office when Scully first comes home? I kind of remember smthg like that being there and thinking that Mulder must drink now too. On the series I didn't imagine him as a drinker, or a hard-drinker, but the way he is in IWTB I can easily imagine him downing alcohol to ease the pain he's in - to use alcohol as a substitute for him not being able to publicly go out and investigate claims of the paranormal.

gorgclaud wrote:I tell ya, if we cut to them in IWTB and they live even a cheesy life like we saw them living in Arcadia, I would be much happier than what we were given. Its so depressing, its unbelieveable.

LOL crackup Oh man! I would have walked out of the theatre. I much prefer to see Mulder and Scully on the decline than to see them cheesy happy like that! I prefer dysfunctional MSR over fanfic cheesy MSR. I don't think that their depressing life and relationship is unbelievable, in fact I honestly think it's straight to their true characters to be that unhappy together so as much as I hate seeing them both so miserable, that's just who they are when they are involved together. I don't expect anything else.

gorgclaud wrote:Does Mulder fight for her, like he did in the hallway scene in FTF, when she tells him that she wont come home to him anymore in IWTB if he carries on with the case? No. Sure, it was a bit of tiff and you dont always do the right thing, but he doesnt fight for her at all. He says Good luck then and walks away. He wont give up his obsession for her and all this is clear earlier on, the signs were there that thats what he is like.

It seems time has passed and she still isnt with him...he still doesnt fight for her. He is still sitting in his room cutting out newspaper articles...defending a man whom should not be defending and doesnt ask how she is at all.

You see, the very fact that this is how he reacted to her breaking up with him indicates that the idea of how they don't belong together has been in his mind (and hers) for awhile now. You don't just break up with someone you've been with for six years at a second's notice - the decision to do this comes from months of pondering over the issue and wondering how it is that you're going to bring it up and leave this person you care about (even if he/she makes you unhappy in a relationship). Think about any time that you've broken up with someone, did you do it spur of the moment without any thought beforehand, or did you sit on the decision for awhile before deciding to end the relationship? Yeah, that's what I thought. Scully has obviously been giving this break up some thought as of late in IWTB.

gorgclaud wrote:
Dana Doggett wrote:And then... and then at the very end of the movie, Mulder tells Scully that a pedophile can be forgiven by God (and was doing God's work) - he's telling this to a doctor who cares for, treats, and performs surgery on children to save their lives. And he (and we) know how Scully feels about pedophiles based on her behaviour towards Father Joe earlier in the movie when she first met him. It's like Mulder doesn't get her, he should know better than to preach to her that a pedophile can be forgiven for his sins. Scully eventually comes to terms with Mulder's way of viewing a pedophile as being forgiven by God, they kiss and make up and Scully again gives into following a life where darkness will always follow her... continuing to be involved with Mulder. She shows at the end of this movie that though she wants to walk away from him, live a normal life, not have that darkness in her life - that she'll give all of that up because Mulder doesn't want her to leave.


Seriously...Im glad you see this as I do. Its utterly depressing. She was willing to leave. She was the one that told him she wasnt coming home. She still came to him, and he still didnt fight for her. She still walked out of the house again. The only thing that suggests to us that they are still together is the added bit in the credits with them strangely on a boat together. Random.

It's not just depressing. It's disgusting that Mulder would defend a pedophile to Scully - a woman who works closely with children. It's very "Chris Carter" of him to talk like this, IMO of course.

I read somewhere that the boat thing at the end of the end credits was supposed to be David and Gillian waving goodbye to the fans in case IWTB (hopefully, keeps fingers crossed) was the last time we'd have a XF movie. I never once viewed it as Mulder and Scully being whisked away to happiness, that's just 'shipper fodder and a silly fanfic plot bunny that 'shippers wanted to see. It's too out-of-character to be Mulder and Scully, any XF fan should know that.

gorgclaud wrote:I was thinking, it might be an age thing but Im not entirely sure. I mean, someone suggested to me recently that when I saw Doggett and then automatically got into DSR 10 years ago, it was when i was more mature, more realistic, more secure emotionally and had more experience with men and life. When I enjoyed MSR, I was a teenager. The older I got, the more it didnt appeal to me. I wonder if this is a factor. It might be with me but not with others. I know a lot of MSR fans who arent just teenagers. But its worth considering. Doggett is a more mature man too and his ways with Scully is again, mature. So I wonder if you have to be a certain age to appreciate this.

I've often thought of this too. No proof, just basing it on some of the personality behaviours of some rather immature 'shippers that I've run into. They behave more like teenagers than they do mature adults sometimes - regardless of age I'm sure. I was younger when I was "into" MSR, and older now that I'm still into DSR. But that's just you and me, this theory could be wrong. I've also thought about how it's possible that MSR 'shippers could be basing their like of the MSR on looks alone, David and Gillian are good looking therefore Mulder and Scully are good looking so obviously two good looking people need to be romantically involved together. Robert Patrick/Doggett is good-looking too, but I guess maybe (for some) not as easily a "good looking" person as Duchovny - therefore some ppl may not view Robert as good looking and therefore they can't imagine Scully being involved with a man that they don't think is attractive. Does that make sense?

I'm theorizing on petty reasons now as to why people 'ship who they 'ship. Ignore me if you think I'm wrong, I'm just rambling on.

gorgclaud wrote:And when she goes off in the car with Mulder before this when Kersh, Gibson, Reyes, Skinner and Doggett are standing there, Doggett has already turned around to watch Scully walking away and then Mulder walks away. Doggett is still focused on Scully and its that that bothers him.

OMG! Really?! I have never noticed this before! I may have to go fast forward to this scene in "The Truth" to see this gem! Thanks for pointing it out monkey dance

gorgclaud wrote:There are times I do compare them off my own back, though not in this detail, but thats only cause its a given, cause we all know she IS with Mulder and so thats why we would compare them. But yes, so many ASK me why this why that and need it explained in the simplest ways. I dont really understand why they want it explained all the time.

Yeah, because Scully is with Mulder is why it's understandable that DSR discussions can fall into comparing DSR with MSR, but that's just natural. I wonder if we can come up with a quick, to-the-point answer to give ppl that ask us why we like DSR over MSR so that we don't always have to explain ourselves. Sometimes - in threads like this one - I feel like I'm typing from memory from other threads like this that I've been involved in over these past 11 years. LOL I don't mind it, especially since the SoX Forum does not have a thread like this anywhere else, but for me it's a bit redundant.

Maybe fans want it explained so that they can rationalize finding a way to enjoy the DSR too wink LOL Hahahaha!

gorgclaud wrote:I would say I think Mulder suits someone else completely different, but i wont get into that here.

I think Mulder perfectly suits himself and no one else. I'm curious though as to who you think suits him so please (pretty please) start a thread for this. I want to know.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:04

Aciano wrote:But it’s still fun to imagine what happened off-screen, don’t you agree? Mulder and Scully could have made mushy speeches and gotten married and run off to the suburbs to raise their 3 kids and a dog. And I’d still be imagining what went on during the times we didn’t see them. That’s why I got into reading fanfiction, its fun to think about what happens while they’re not chasing monsters and aliens.

This is why I love fanfic, it allows fans to go off into their own imaginations to figure out what happened off-screen between their favorite pairings. It's also sad that I've had MSR 'shippers tell me that my fanfic is wrong because of how I imagine Doggett and Scully together and that I have no right to mess with canon like that. Yeah... ok, whatever. Fanfic is fanFICTION for a reason, it doesn't have to stick with canon simply because (IMO) these people who told me this only want to read Mulder/Scully and can't tolerate or accept that other people like other pairings. Dorks. <--- that's the nice way of saying something really, really mean.

Aciano wrote:Agree 100%. That is the only way, I believe, Scully and Doggett would have gotten together. If Mulder was completely and utterly out of the picture.

ITA. Or in a scenario where the relationship between Mulder and Scully has come to an end and somehow John and Dana find each other and things pick up from there, but I'm pretty certain that Carter will never split up the Mulder/Scully relationship simply because he likes to have his ass licked by the 'shippers who praise him. But yeah, if Mulder were out of the picture I can easily imagine John and Dana getting together, getting married, having kids (if she isn't barren anymore - or at least adopting), and living in the suburbs - that just suits them very much.

Aciano wrote:I first noticed the UST between Mulder and Scully in Ice, and I was pretty much instantly on board with them.

I love/adore the UST between Mulder and Scully in "Ice"! OMG! Love it! The scene where she checks out the back of his neck and then he turns her around and does the same! I miss old school MSR. I really do.

Aciano wrote:I then watched until Roadrunners, got bored and proceeded to go online and read every spoiler I could find in order to figure out when Mulder would be back. It was then that I found about DSR. I’ll admit I was surprised because the idea had not even occurred to me that Scully and Doggett would/could be more than friends.

I'm curious, which site did you find out about DSR? My DSR website? A forum (if so, which one)? An article? An interview? Where you first read about DSR was the discussion about it positive? Negative? Neutral? Indifferent?

Aciano wrote:I watched LOST for 6 years before X-Files and loved the online community. If you’ve never seen the show, first of all you should because it’s an amazing show, and second of all there’s a major love triangle (which eventually turned into a love quadrangle, but I’ll spare you the problems with that!). Many fans had organized themselves into 2 groups: the “Jaters” (Jack/Kate) and the “Skaters” (Sawyer/Kate). I was a Jater so for years, after each episode, we would all get online and discuss what happened and bicker over who loved who and what that touch meant and blah blah blah. And I got so used to debating with other people that it was a habit, and it was fun. We all knew each other and would tease and bicker, without too many serious arguments.

OMG! I love "LOST" so much! My first pairing preference on "LOST" was Jack/Kate and remained my OTP until the last episode aired. I also hopped on board Sawyer/Kate during season 2, dropped it in season 3 (hated it then, but as the series continued on learned to appreciate what the Skate relationship actually meant for Kate - her love for Jack). I then went on to absolutely adore Sawyer/Juliet (Suliet!), and enjoy the small amount of Jack/Juliet that we got - which was obviously all about Jack's feelings for Kate and seeing her with Sawyer. It was so complex those characters and relationships. I love that. Also it was so real, so raw the way these characters and relationships played out.

I went into the fandom around season 3 and quickly ran away from it after I told a LiveJournal friend of mine that I like Jack/Kate *and* Sawyer/Kate - some of her LJ friends proceeded to bash the living shit out of me because how dare I like Jack/Kate and Sawyer/Kate at the same time, omg! That was my main experience within the "LOST" online community, and I really haven't gone back to it since.

Anyway, you do know we have a LOST discussion folder, right?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Aciano wrote:The reason this thread isn’t “MSR and Mulder/Krycek” or “MSR and Scully/Reyes” or whatever is because DSR IS the most logical choice when it comes to an opponent for MSR. I never felt threatened, but if I was to pick the one that was most likely to happen, it would be DSR no doubt. I never got the feeling that Mulder or Scully were interested in people of the same gender (sorry luv2luv! ) so that’s out. Mulder and Reyes didn’t spend that much time together, and no one seems as interested in Scully/Skinner as they do in DSR. That’s the complete truth on what went through my head before starting this thread.

That totally makes sense to me, and acknowledges that Doggett/Scully is a direct threat to the MSR under the right circumstances. I don't expect MSR fans to feel threatened by the DSR or DSR fans, but I do think that some of them do (probably because they aren't as secure in the MSR 'ship as other MSR fans are) - and I think those MSR fans who feel threatened are more likely to try to stir up trouble than fans who are secure with the MSR even with the UST going on between John and Dana in seasons 8 and 9.

For the record, I'm glad that you started this debate thread, SoX hasn't ever had this discussion topic, and with good friends and respect which is prevalent here at the SoX Forum this is probably the best forum out there to discuss the topic comparing MSR to DSR smile Thank you!

Aciano wrote:I know that shippers of any kind, MSR included, have a tendency to see what they want to see, but I don’t think this is the case all the time. There was a show in between seasons 5 and 6 called Inside the X-Files where Chris Carter literally said (and I’m not paraphrasing) “Scully loves Mulder and Mulder loves Scully. It’s a wonderful romance.” I don’t know how more obvious than that you can get.

The quote is actually this (I Googled it): "Scully loves Mulder, and Mulder loves Scully, it's a wonderful romance. It's just not a sexual romance, it's not a physical romance. It is a caring, tender respectful relationship. It's an ideal, and I would never want to do anything to threaten it, to change it."

I think it's interesting that you read it as Carter speaking of Mulder and Scully being "in love" with each other, whereas I interpret his quote here as Mulder loves Scully, and Scully loves Mulder - not "Mulder is in love with Scully, and Scully is in love with Mulder" - there's a difference. The fact that he says it's not a sexual or physical romance says a lot about the original idea Carter had for their relationship, he didn't intend for it to turn into romance in the way romance novels have love stories. I think when he said "romance" that he was referring to romanticism: "the Romantic style or movement in literature and art, or adherence to its principles." (from dictionary.com) Also from dictionary.com:

Romanticism: A movement in literature and the fine arts, beginning in the early nineteenth century, that stressed personal emotion, free play of the imagination, and freedom from rules of form. Among the leaders of romanticism in world literature were Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Victor Hugo, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and Friedrich von Schiller.

I wish that Carter had never done anything to threaten it or to change it. I think we can all agree that he did just that and it ruined the beauty of the relationship that Mulder and Scully had with each other simply by putting them into a physical relationship with each other.

Aciano wrote:So Scully can be "with" Mulder, find Doggett attractive but decide not to act on it and to stay with Mulder. I think we all agree on this.

Agree. But in her attraction to him, is an attraction to him that some people insist (beyond all rationale) did not exist, but there are several moments in seasons 8 and 9 that point to her finding Doggett physically attractive. I guess it bothers me that some fans (MSR fans) blatantly ignore these signs of attraction simply to say that us DSR fans are delusional and have our heads up our butts for not seeing the love between Mulder and Scully.

Fact is if they'd take the time to talk with us and get to know us and our views they'd know for a fact that we see that Mulder and Scully love each other, we're not blind to that just to support the DSR. Duh! I hate the most the assumptions that some XF/MSR fans make about myself (and others) simply because of a screen name (mine is Dana Doggett - you can imagine the crap I got for that when I started using it) and a pairing preference that isn't the same as their own.

Aciano wrote:BUT I never thought that it had been that way for the whole 6 years, or even a few months. I always thought that it was a temporary downturn in their relationship, and that they returned to their usual selves after the movie in the boat scene. There, they seem happy and more like the Mulder and Scully from the TV show.

If it was a temporary downturn in their relationship then why would Scully break up with Mulder? I assume that after six years together that she just wouldn't break up with him out of the blue, and that she had to have thought about it for quite some time before saying it to him. This suggests to me that their relationship has been on the verge of ending for awhile now - maybe not all those six years, but for long enough for Scully to find the courage to tell Mulder they're over and she's not coming home.

I never view that boat scene as Mulder and Scully because I read somewhere - I think from Frank Spotnitz - that it wasn't intended to be Mulder and Scully, and it was just David and Gillian waving goodbye to fans at the end of the movie incase IWTB is the last we see of TXF. I forget where I read that, but I did read it somewhere back in 2008. Because of that comment that I read, I knew not to view it as Mulder and Scully. But then, if 'shippers want to see it as Mulder and Scully (acting out of character) being happy together in the tropics, and use that as fuel for fanfic, who am I to stop them?
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by TN1 on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:19

Dana Doggett wrote:I never view that boat scene as Mulder and Scully because I read somewhere - I think from Frank Spotnitz - that it wasn't intended to be Mulder and Scully, and it was just David and Gillian waving goodbye to fans at the end of the movie incase IWTB is the last we see of TXF. I forget where I read that, but I did read it somewhere back in 2008. Because of that comment that I read, I knew not to view it as Mulder and Scully. But then, if 'shippers want to see it as Mulder and Scully (acting out of character) being happy together in the tropics, and use that as fuel for fanfic, who am I to stop them?

I actually didn't know about that scene nor Franks comment about it when I first saw IWTB in theaters and was kinda shocked how out-off-character the entire scene was. Until then I was almost about to enjoy the movie even though I had hoped it would have been a stronger casefile.

I also must say that Mulder didn't bother me as much as Scully did most of the time. It was hard enough to imagine that it was Scully bc of her entire appearance with more dark-blond, longish hair and uncovered mole. What annoyed me even more was her behavior to first come up begging Mulder to be part of Whitneys rescue team and then holding exactly this against him for the rest of the movie even though... like Mulder told her... she knew that he'd "fall" into that darkness again.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:22

TN1 wrote:I actually didn't know about that scene nor Franks comment about it when I first saw IWTB in theaters and was kinda shocked how out-off-character the entire scene was. Until then I was almost about to enjoy the movie even though I had hoped it would have been a stronger casefile.

I also must say that Mulder didn't bother me as much as Scully did most of the time. It was hard enough to imagine that it was Scully bc of her entire appearance with more dark-blond, longish hair and uncovered mole. What annoyed me even more was her behavior to first come up begging Mulder to be part of Whitneys rescue team and then holding exactly this against him for the rest of the movie even though... like Mulder told her... she knew that he'd "fall" into that darkness again.

Agreed, Scully bothers me more in IWTB than Mulder does (not by much though). Did they really uncover her mole? I don't remember that LOL crackup

It was a bit BitchScully for her to bring the case to Mulder and then whine about him helping out for most the rest of the movie - what a freakin' hypocrite. I don't like BitchScully. Boo to BitchScully! If she didn't want Mulder to do what he loves to do, she never should have brought that case to his attention. God forbid Mulder enjoy doing what he loves to do in life other than sitting in his man cave all the time bored our of his mind. Ooohhh... I don't like BitchScully.

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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by TN1 on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:30

Exactly... She was the one who brought that darkness to her home. Not Mulder.

Maybe it was also Scully who had the key to his man cave and locked the door when she left for work. That's why we got a bearded Mulder. He seems to be like Tooms building his Nest, if you look at his room.
crackup

And yes, they didn't cover Gillians mole in IWTB which made it even harder for me to think about them as being Mulder and Scully. Since we already got a different synchronized voice for him. That's another reason why I don't watch the movie very often or can't decide what's worse. The german dubbed version sounds like Ben Affleck vs. our usual Scully and the original dub Mulder vs. Gillian.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by Cassiopeia on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:34

LOL So true! She brought the darkness to her home, maybe she was looking for a reason to leave Mulder.
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

Post by TN1 on Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:36

Good possible, maybe she was secretly chating with her brother again who suggested it to her how to get finally rid of Mulder by handing him back over to the FBI. devious
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Re: MSR/DSR CIVILIZED Debate Thread

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